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UMich affirmative action plaintiffs ask for mass damages

13. December 2004 • Murph
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Lawyers for two white students who sued the University of Michigan claiming they were denied admission in favor of less-qualified minorities have asked a federal judge to award damages to 30,000 other white and Asian students, who also may have been illegally denied admission.

The motion, filed with U.S. District Judge Patrick Duggan in Detroit late Wednesday, is seeking nominal damages of $1 for the nonminority students whose applications were rejected between 1995 and 2003 and asking U-M to refund their application fees.

The lawyers also are asking U-M to reimburse some of those students who may have attended a more expensive school after being rejected by U-M and compensate them for emotional distress, according to court records.

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...and they deserve every penny.
—T.J. Dec. 13 '04 - 04:52AM #
Give me a break! The lawsuit is over and there is no point in continuing this mess. You didn’t get into to Michigan… SO WHAT!!!!! Go to another school and call it day!
—Desmond Patton Dec. 13 '04 - 04:56AM #
Easy to say when it didn’t happen to you.

Easy to say when you don’t have hundreds or thousands of people insulting you because you stood up for yourself when you were a victim of institutionalized racism.
—T.J. Dec. 13 '04 - 05:05AM #
will brown reimburse me for being too stupid to get in? like being white, being stupid was not my fault.
—fatty Dec. 13 '04 - 05:45AM #
There’s no such thing as being “too stupid” to get into Michigan.

You can not have the test scores, not have the GPA, or not have the money. But intelligence or lack of stupidity are far from a prerequisite for admission to the University of Michigan.
—T.J. Dec. 13 '04 - 06:45AM #
As a Latina and an undergraduate at the University of Michigan I think it is ridiculous that people honestly think that you do not have to be smart to get into Michigan. Just becuase you a member of an underrepresented minority does not mean you automatically get in. You have to be very smart and as far as I am concerned your application has to stand out more than other people (i.e. white people) because you are competing with everyone even students of color. White people need to understand that they DO NOT deserve anything. If you DID NOT get in maybe it was because you were NOT qualified. Further more to say that it was becuase of a person of color is ridiculous because the infamous 20 points were awarded to not only underrepresented minorities (i.e. Blacks, Latino/as, and Native Americans)poor people (including whites, which there are obviously more of in this country)athletes, and RICH ASS people (legacy). Therefore your “reserved” seat could have been “stolen from any of these parties but people just want to talk about RACE. Read, learn about history, social disparties, and inequalities and then come and talk to me.

Sashai Alvarez
3rd year English and Philosophy
—Shai Dec. 13 '04 - 08:25AM #
Sashai,

You are right to be offended. TJ is a Troll .
—Scott T. Dec. 13 '04 - 11:34AM #
dude, i think the daily reported this several months ago…

don’t feed the trolls,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 13 '04 - 11:52AM #
“Troll” is an invidious and biased racial classification against T.J.!

Give him damages immediately!

(Ari now didn’t you say on another post that you never even MET T.J., and you’re making these visually unverified racial statements about him? What?? !)
—David Boyle Dec. 13 '04 - 12:22PM #
Look it really is this simple. UofM went to court, and the court said that because the sysetm used by the U to admit minoriteis violated Equal Protection, it had discriminated on teh basis of race against the plaintiffs. Thats right, under Gratz, UofM (but not the law school) is guilty of racial discrimination.

So, yeah the pliantiffs who sued as a class action(TJ, btw take note, thats teh same class actino that you and your tort reform buddies want to get rid off). That means that any member of the class (i am not sure what the exact designation is) is entitled to damages. My guess, is that unlike the people on this blog who see affirmative action is a good thing that needs to be defendent at all costs, the General Counsel’s office will put together a nice offer – and make CIR accept it. And then life will go back to normal.

That said, i think the liberals can learn something from CIR on this. Which is that they have found a way to make a policy that they dislike be expensive enough that it will ultimatly be the seed of its own undoing (remember the next law suit is due to be filed in 21 years at this point). If the dmes were smart and straetgic they could probably do the same to many “evil” programs that they don’t like – that would however require a) coherence and b) not loosing energy over that which is unwinnable (WTO/IMF/NAFTA) and focusing on that which is (administrative remeides, notice and comment, etc). /soapbox/

dave
—David LIvshiz Dec. 13 '04 - 12:27PM #
i don’t really understand your last paragraph…can you please clarify…

thank you,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 13 '04 - 01:01PM #
sure…look both on the left and right there are things poeple don’t like. The thing is, it seems conservatives, have learned that challenging some things that they don’t like is pointiless. So for example, the head of CIR HATES public schools, thinks they are unconstitutional, and should be abolished. he likewise dislikes charter schoools. However, he isn’t challenging that…he isn’t wasting his time protesting that…he challenges small things where he can win (affirmative action, charter schools).

the left…rahter then working on small things that it can win – like having a limited amount of say in the WTO/IMF/WB, or requiring the government to let people know in advance that it is going to be doing X, Y – they are wasting thier time crustading against the system. Its funny, i work on the IMF/WB/WTO stuff – the only result of the protests of these institutions is to create a big headache, and to ensure that the left’s representatives are not in the room. Its amazing, you ask government officials why they don’t invite people from Public Citizen to meetings and they say – why bother, they oppose everything we do anyhow, regardless of what it is so why wast time. And if you ask PC about it they falt out say – hell yeah, we are against globalization we dont’ like any of this, and we want to go back to what we had in 1990.

Thats just not a helpful attitude. Similarly, much of the time, energy, and money that is invested into protesting like wild animals in the street could be spent a) lobying congress/executive branch, or b) partricipating in the WB reform through advocacy of a differnt kind (edditorials, meetings with businesses involved in the region etc). One fo the most amazing things i’ve found this year – is that the only time the pro-left agenda has been able to accomplish anything is whent he work hand in hand with globalization people (so for example, when environemntal advocates worked with major corporations, often times the corporations accept environmental limitations. Not always, but often they do).
—David LIvshiz Dec. 13 '04 - 01:18PM #
oh, yeah, that makes sense…well i think that’s the result of fragmatation of the left’s part…the right, while also fragmented, always unites in the end (for example, his cabinet members only speak out after they leave, or mcain, who hates bush, will still stump for him)...

i do think that if the gop goes farther to the right (if that is even possible) then they will further alienate the old-right and libertarin right, and i think then a lot of old-rights (olmpia snow and arlen spector types) will become democrats, and if the libertaran party ever gets its shit together, it will attract more people to its party…

nuff said,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 13 '04 - 01:27PM #
“protesting like wild animals in the street” ???
—David Boyle Dec. 13 '04 - 01:28PM #
boyle,
of course they are animals…one of them at the borders strike completely mauled t.j. and tore him to shreds!!!!

until proven guilty,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 13 '04 - 02:00PM #
Check it out my people. This is the LAST time I will make this comment, because I feel that after this point, I may harm someone if they don’t understand. Plain and simple – to desegregate, rape, kill, enslave, miseducate, uneducate, reassign, and (about 58,000 more verbs to describe what occurred to) the black race, not only for the period of slavery, but post that era, and expect them to reach an equal playing field when dragged to the Americas is proposterous. As well, the Latinos who went through a similar and in some cases, the same process as blacks, should very well be acknowledged for their inequalities. Additionally, to do the same things to the Natives whom occupied this land, and expect them to reach this “educational equilibrium” within a certain amount of time is again wishful thinking.
To clarify, I am not suggesting that this point will not be reached. I am reminded of the famous saying in which those who start a “race” will not be expected to catch their opponents if starting 400 years late. There is no theory, however, that links that the late-starters will not eventually catch up to those who had the PRIVILEGE to start at their leisure. All this to say, in order for anyone to claim that they were not allowed into an institution because of racial discrimination must first look at the flawed system in which they applied.
Is it an understatement to say that the vast majority of students of color were not accepted into this, and for that matter, many institutions including restrooms, libraries, and PUBLIC SCHOOLS, because of their skin color? Are we really suggesting that the inequality in attempting to correct the current system is so disproportionate that whites and Asian-Americans all over the country are being barred from their institutions of choice? Heaven forbid “minorities” from achieving more than their counterparts, or for that matter, having to go through more obstacles in order to even achieve a lower point. My apologies for not having a Kaplan or for that matter, an auditorium in my schooling vacinity. I’m sorry that I didn’t have the resources to achieve as much as you, but if you dare make a mockery of the same system that excluded you but allowed me, I challenge you to look at the reverse point :: Shall I sue because my ancestors were deprived of the education that you enjoyed for almost 500 years? Should I squable at the disproportionate economic and housing within the urban communities that you established and vacated to entrap “minorities” in these ghettos?
No, I will simply get admitted into U of M, work with you on projects, so that one day you can hopefully see the strife that my people went through in order to get to this point. Have a wonderful day all.
—Riana Elyse Anderson Dec. 13 '04 - 04:26PM #
Sashai,

First of all, you are ignorant. This is not namecalling, it’s simply speaking the truth. You are ignorant.

No, you don’t have to be smart to get in. And no, my comment was not in any way, shape or form the slightest bit racially motivated. Actually, when I was thinking of the stupid people I know who are at Michigan, I was thinking of many of the rich white people there. Go to an MSA meeting, at least when I was there, and you will find quite a few rich white people who just plain aren’t bright. I knew plenty of stupid people, white, black, brown, yellow, rich, poor, fat, skinny, tall and short.

Next, you are right, there were other ways to get 20 points. However, the only minorities who got their 20 points for being a minority were the rich ones. Use your head. If they were poor, they would have gotten their 20 points for being poor, no matter what color they are.

As a result, the 20 points for race only went to rich minorities, who are exactly the people who don’t need it. They had all the advantages of being rich, and people like myself didn’t get anything.

The best thing to do would be to have gotten rid of race as a factor completely, and get rid of 20 points for legacy. If legacies want admission, then let their parents donate a significant sum to get them in, and have that money earmarked for scholarships for the poor. That way everyone wins, and nobody is discriminated against.

Next, yes, with race as a factor, people ARE left out because of their race, and no, it isn’t their fault. Two people, 4.0 GPAs, 1400 SATs, both with identical work experience, the minority gets accepted, the white person doesn’t. Happens quite a bit. Happened to me in law school admissions. That is racist and it’s wrong. And there is nothing “progressive” about supporting institutionalized racism.

Next time, skip the straw man arguments. Makes you look even more ignorant.

Maybe you got into UM because you deserved to, maybe you got in because of your race. Neither of us will ever know. But don’t insult white people and asians by saying that someone getting a free pass into UM because of their race doesn’t cost someone else a seat because it does.

Finally, “Read, learn about history, social disparties, and inequalities and then come and talk to me”...

I have forgotten more about this than you will ever know. I have lived it. You just read a little bit about it. It was through living it and learning it from both sides that I came to realize that Affirmative Action is racist. It is racist, that is a fact. Now, go ahead and support it if you want to, but in supporting it, you forever lose the right to call anyone else a racist. Your call.
—T.J. Dec. 13 '04 - 04:30PM #
Ryan,

I will address only a small portion of your ignorant, hate-filled diatribe…

“Are we really suggesting that the inequality in attempting to correct the current system is so disproportionate that whites and Asian-Americans all over the country are being barred from their institutions of choice?”

Yes. Very much so. If they weren’t, the UC schools would be 95% Asian, if not more. Graduate schools in Engineering would be 95% foreign students. There couldn’t be more than six black students at Yale Law, and that would mean that no other top 30 law school would have a single black student, according to the numbers (six black students scored higher on their LSAT than Yale’s 25th percentile in the entire country in 2001).

“Is it an understatement to say that the vast majority of students of color were not accepted into this, and for that matter, many institutions including restrooms, libraries, and PUBLIC SCHOOLS, because of their skin color?”

No, it’s not an understatement. It’s not true at all. The restroom part is true, library part is true, public schools, if you are talking about universities, is not really true at all. At the turn of the 20th century, to get into Harvard, you just had to prove you could pay. Or, if you were a promising student, they would pay for you to go. Read The Big Test.

“Heaven forbid “minorities” from achieving more than their counterparts, or for that matter, having to go through more obstacles in order to even achieve a lower point.”

What about the poor white people and asians who have to go through the same obstacles, yet have no affirmative action safety net, nor minority scholarships to fall back on?

“I’m sorry that I didn’t have the resources to achieve as much as you,”

Ignorant assumption. Plenty of white people go to black, inner city schools. And those white people are given no better education and no better opportunities than the minorities, yet they are also not given the affirmative action free passes and minority scholarships that white people are.

You will not get away for using race as a proxy for financial status. Not while I am here. Poor people are poor, minorities are minorities. Neither I nor anyone else that I know of have any sort of problem giving disadvantaged people a helping hand. The problem is that ignorant people like yourself use race as a proxy for financial status in your justification for giving racist preferences to minorities.

“Shall I sue because my ancestors were deprived of the education that you enjoyed for almost 500 years?”

I am a first generation college student, second generation MIDDLE SCHOOL GRADUATE. My grandfather was the first in his family to go to sixth grade. We’re white and your argument is thus completely ruined.

You forget that in the South during slavery, the white plantation workers had it little better than the slaves. There were no schools for whites who couldn’t afford it, and Jim Crow was intended as much to discriminate against the poor as it was the blacks. Poll taxes? If you have barely enough to feed your family, why on Earth would you pay a tax just to vote? Grandfather clause? The white plantation workers were almost always first or second generation Irish people, many of which came over during the potato famine, and had to work for their British plantation owners. In case you didn’t know, the British have lorded over the Irish for half a millennium, and had enslaved the Irish for centuries.

Where’s my 20 points?

“No, I will simply get admitted into U of M, work with you on projects, so that one day you can hopefully see the strife that my people went through in order to get to this point.”

It’s just a shame that you are too close-minded and ignorant to see that there are millions of white people who went through shit that was worse than anything you have ever seen, yet aren’t trying to get a handout for it.

You’re pathetic.
—T.J. Dec. 13 '04 - 04:47PM #
I’m just curious, what do all the qualified minority applicants who got rejected get? 2 dollars. Contrary to popular conservative beliefs, there are, were and always have been qualified minorities that have gotten rejected from the University of Michigan, always.
—Bo Dec. 13 '04 - 04:48PM #
By the way…

Don’t criticize me or make assumptions on what I think of particular issues because you identify me as “conservative” and thus assume that I hold all conservative viewpoints.

I am against tort reform. I don’t agree with conservatives on this at all.

Don’t assume that I am in favor of it. I am fine with class action suits. And I want to see big tobacco brought down in a hurry.
—T.J. Dec. 13 '04 - 04:50PM #
t.j., you have the right to argue you point all you want and it is welcome, but for christ’s sake cut it out with ad hominems…treat others with respect, and maybe we will treat you in kind…

it is your behavor that characterizes anti-affirmative action activists as angry, malcontents…you want that image to change, start with yourself…

this is a healthy reminder from your friendly bloganalayist…

-a reasonable ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 13 '04 - 04:52PM #
“Contrary to popular conservative beliefs, there are, were and always have been qualified minorities that have gotten rejected from the University of Michigan, always.”

And if they were rejected because their seat was given to an unqualified white, asian or minority student, that is wrong.

One of my profs worked admissions for the University of Georgia. She said that if there were no affirmative action for white males at UGa, the campus would have been 90% female.

I am against their use of affirmative action in that case as well. Other than disadvantaged students (regardless of gender or race), or people whose families are willing to make a sizeable donation for them to attend, I don’t think any of them should have been admitted if there was a more qualified female candidate. If that means that the school is 80-90% female, so be it. Those are the people who deserved admission.
—T.J. Dec. 13 '04 - 04:54PM #
“t.j., you have the right to argue you point all you want and it is welcome, but for christ’s sake cut it out with ad hominemsâ€¦”

Hey kettle….YOU’RE BLACK!!!

There were no ad hominems in my post, by the way.
—T.J. Dec. 13 '04 - 04:56PM #
folks, i try to reason with him, and this is what you get…

oy, what a waste…

-a contraversial ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 13 '04 - 05:07PM #
I believe the main reason those students were against affirmative action in the first place is simply because they, like a lot of white people, feel that race shouldn’t matter in this country anymore. But when you look at the health statistics alone, the pure fact that someone is born a minority puts them at a disadvantage, before they even learn to walk or talk they are already below a white person in every single capacity. All men are sadly not born equal. Look at the facts…from health, politics, education, economics, etc…race STILL matters in this country, for all you who hate affirmative action, join the club. As a member of the black community I’ve hated that race counts since the day I was born.
—Ann Dec. 13 '04 - 05:24PM #
First off TJ your totally off base.

Even rich minorities have to deal with racisim,and thats the problem, actually they probably have to deal with it more than poorer minorities. That is why richer minorities got the 20 points not for any other reason. so yes while you might have been in the same environ ment you did not have the same lives, or experience the same things. Also no matter what you say the Irish did not have it as bad as Slaves or even as Blacks after the Abolition of slavery, because dispite anything you can say there was at least the option for the Irish and all whites, just like Blacks have the option now.

Anyway no student can get in strictly on affirmative action, because If the student couldnt get the other 80 points needed to get in then they wouldnt be here. Also dispite what You might think without diversity in classes (except science majors) what you learn will be very limited and It would be harder for said student to operate in the real world. Therefore as much as Affirmative action helped Black students get into the university, it helps white students get a rounded education.

Finally, The reason why Asians aren’t included in the old affirmative action 20 points busines, is because of the amount of Asians already admitted, and that are continued to be admitted, in order to maintain a propper balance and the free flow of new ideas, they arent included in the Affirmative action 20 points issue
—Mike Dec. 13 '04 - 05:52PM #
Hi. I just wanted to add, from my own personal perspective, that suing the University did not even come close to entering my imagination when I became the first person in my family to get rejected from this institution. While it was extremely embarrassing to fail to gain admission even with the bonus legacy points, even at age 17 I was fully aware that I had nobody to blame but myself. If anyone should be “too stupid” for Michigan, I might consider myself living proof. Fortunately, throughout life I have been able to compensate for my inferior competency in academia through brute force hard work and stubborn perseverance, along with a moderate-sized safety net reeking of middle-class suburban privilege that cannot be underestimated.

No, I did not sue the University, but instead I dedicated myself to work harder, and try again. I applied for admission the following year as a transfer student, and was eventually accepted.

I was a poor student in LSA, and from the beginning I wasn’t quite cutting it. Ultimately it became clear that it was in my best interests to leave Michigan. Whether or not this is a matter of “inferior intelligence” or perhaps a poor match, in any case, I was simply unable to successfully complete the requirements to earn an undergraduate degree at this fine institution, and I wholeheartedly believe that the University of Michigan was absolutely legitimate and appropriate in declining the initial offer of admission to me in the first place. I was a marginal candidate. I still am. I expect no favors.

I came really close to flunking out of Michigan before eventually realizing that a smaller campus environment was much more suited to my learning style and individualized needs. So then I headed Northeast…

Nowadays I’m in grad school, because a couple of years ago I managed to convince the folks over in Rackham and in my department that I’m qualified for admission and I’ve got what it takes to succeed in graduate school here at Michigan. To be quite honest, I don’t really know if I completely believe that, but it doesn’t matter what I think because I’m not the one who decides who gets in and who doesn’t. And I’m here, now. Perhaps most importantly, I find no shame in being the “dumbest kid in the class” when all of my classmates in my department are absolutely brilliant.

Thanks for reading, comments welcome. Though I’m not quite sure which comment I was responding to…
—chi Dec. 13 '04 - 06:25PM #
The truth of the matter is that test scores and grades are not the only things that define a good student. Social and economic circumstances play a large role in a students achievemnts. And it is due to the massive amounts of racism and the legacy of slavery that most minorites dont have test scores or the grades. The so called equal opportunity system in America is not equal. And for all those who say that Affirmative Action is reversed racism you should look at the diversity of Affirmative Action it covers everyone who is not a rich white male. As for the two ignorant women who sued in the first place they are the biggest idiots of them all because white women benefit the greatrest from Affirmative Action. The fact that the lawsuits said that underqualified minorities took their place clearly shows the lawsuit was racist. Because their are way more underqualified white students due to the hudge black white enrollment difference. So in the end white people need to realize that being white does not garuntee you enrollment, you dont know if you deserve the spot over someone else and it is not entitled to you.
—Janee Dec. 13 '04 - 06:48PM #
T.J,

YOU ARE CLEARLY IGNORANT BEYOND BELIEF!!! No white race has been culturally destroyed like the black race. The slavery of European cultures as well as the Hollocuast did not destroy the cultural foundation a the people who were in it. If you know so much about the subject than you would know that. Beyond the physical bondage there was a destruction of languge, beliefs and family. This destruction was a systematic approach to dehumanizing a people. The is no comparison in white history. American slavery was a mental bondage previously unknown to the world. Before American slavery people were allowed to exist culturally as a people within their enslaved socities. Yet this was not the case in American slavery you hoi polloi twit. And the truth is you did get in here because of your race, you are white so you inherently have white privilege. You have enjoyed something far beyond Affimative Action your entire life. And the truth is whether a person is rich and black (or other minority) or poor and black, he or she will never have the legacy of white privilege. Which still exists today!!!!!!!!
—J. L. Moore Dec. 13 '04 - 07:06PM #
I really thought for once I was going to go to a post about affirmative action and see TJ say something intelligent… yeah right! Just FYI, the Daily reported a while ago on the plaintiffs (named) recieving lawyer fees and that kind of stuff, which is not uncommon. This however is a different ball of wax. I’ll give David L. a nod because his response to what general counsel will do seems the most correct. Unlike other folks on this site, I don’t pretend to be a lawyer, but I do think some decisions we can see coming a mile away.
—dumi Dec. 13 '04 - 07:32PM #
I have never read such idiocy come from a single person. T.J. you are truly in denial and need help. I have decided to respond to your comment the way you respond to everyone else’s, with no respect or care. If you are offended, too bad, you have offended me, and I’m sure more, with your insulting comments. I choose to reply anonymously because I do not want to give you the satisfaction of replying ignorantly to me, as you have everyone else. To anyone else who reads this and thinks I am being immature, all right, maybe I amâ€¦but I am not even close to this imbecile.
—Anonymous Dec. 13 '04 - 07:49PM #
Okay, just to add a bit of reason. Whether or not minoriteis have or have not been hurt by their previous experience in Slavery, the South of Jim Crow, or racism. That is NOT allowed to play a role in an institutions decision to admit. The Supreme Court HELD EXACTLY that in Bakke.

Second of all – i am amazed by the hypocracy of some of these posts. Who ever talked about health statisitcs. Sure, thats true. But you know what – MEN also have a lower life exepctancy, and also have higher infant death rates. And that does NOT mean that men get AA, in fact, Women do. So regardless of all of these statistics – thats NOT what this should be based on.

Moreover, yes, blacks and hispanics have had a very diifuclt time – and have a legacy of opression. But you know what – so do ASIANS. Many faced discrimination in this country (especially, if they were lucky enough to come into this country in the 20s, and 30s). And those that have immigrated have faced the added challenge of starting a new in a different country. And yet, they are consistently at the top of the calss, and at least as far as I understand it, the group MOST hurt by affirmative action. But clearly, since thye managed to on their own resolve these issues they should be punished for it. makes all the sense to me.

Chi – you konw its interesting – have you read the law suit. THey didn’t sue cause they didn’t get in . In fact in paragrph 4 or 5 of their complaint they EXPLICITLY stated that that was not what the damage was. Rather, they sued b/c their right to be FAIRLY considered was infringed. B/c they could not compete when a differnt group of peopel was giving an automatic advantage. Thats the problem with Affirmative Action – not that peopel dont’ get in.

Lastly, this is just MHO, but come one – do any of you actually think that it is a good thing that we explicitly look to the race of a human being before deciding colum 1 or colum 2. Its Evil. It may be necessary for all those reasons that people articulate above – but its still evil. just a neccessary one. for now.

Dave
—David LIvshiz Dec. 13 '04 - 08:07PM #
As a Black woman on this campus it angers me that we are still fighting over a decision that happened like 8 months ago. It’s finsls…move on!!!
Next I want to say that I support Sashai completely. You don’t see me running back to USC and adking for my money back because I didn’t get it. How about people just live and move on with the fact that YOU DON’T GO TO U OF M!!!! If it was simple racism than minorities would be flunking out and your “spot” would be ope again. We are just as educated as you so get over the fact that segregation ended and we’re here. I know you’re probably mad at that too but it happened. Go study and enjoy your Christmas.
—Deborah Wiggins Dec. 13 '04 - 08:43PM #
livshiz,
do you worship the supreme court??? perhaps you do…just because they said that in bakke doesn’t mean that a society (a democratic one, at least) does not have the responsiblity to mend its wrongs…for example, after decades of red-lining (jim crowing zoning laws in the north), it then falls on the state to ameliorate the vast inequality between the races that it has created…

livshiz, you completely missed the boat on the health statisitics…the point is that minorities suffer things like lead poisining and not enough access to health care due to things like the aforementioned redlining (just one example)...the life expenctcy thing is completely unrelated (that is, it is a biological difference btween men and women)...i expect better of you next time…

interesting point about the asians…however, a few things: asians are not underrepresented because of a) many more asian immigrants are coming over with middle class wealth and social capital (like advanced degrees), more than say latinos, for example, and b) on the whole, do not suffer the same kind of history of ghetoization…but still, the fact (which you chose to ignore) is that asians, like whites, are not underreperesented, and latinos and blacks and native americans are…

it is not that they are being punished, but that other groups are being given the privliage that has long been denied to them after decades and centuries of institutional racism…

i’ve got blisters on my fingers,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 13 '04 - 08:59PM #
Wow, I have never in my life read so many ridiculous opinions from so many outright dim people. I am thoroughly embarrassed to call myself a UM alum, with people like you representing the students.

Basically, since I have already proven that the “minorities are poor, so they need AA” argument is faulty, all you have left is the “well, minorities were slaves for hundreds of years” argument, and a little bit of namecalling.

The bottom line is this. I didn’t enslave anyone. My ancestors didn’t enslave anyone. You were never slaves. Yet you expect me to give you my seat and pay for you to attend.

OF COURSE you want me to shut up. OF COURSE you want to squelch my voice and call me names to try to keep me from voicing my opinion. That is what racists have done to those whom they oppress for thousands of years. Not gonna happen on my watch.

You want your free passes and your minority scholarships? You want to support institutionalized racism? Well, then you’re going to have to deal with me throwing this in your face. Don’t like it? Don’t come here anymore.

Finally, the “sensitivity” thing. I am not sensitive to your needs because frankly I just don’t fucking care. How do you like that? I am not your average guilty white person. I don’t feel guilty at all. I have had to fight tooth and nail for EVERYTHING in my life. I have fought through discrimination you can’t even imagine just to get where I am. I earned EVERYTHING I have, and I don’t respect people who are given things. This goes for the minority with 81 points before her 20 point boost, this goes for the rich white kid from Atlanta, this goes for the athlete who has people do his homework for him, and this goes for the whiny liberal who spends seven years in college, just barely passing, so they can fight for racist policies.

I am gender-blind and colorblind in my contempt and disrespect for lazy people and people who feel entitled to racist handouts. Don’t like it? Again, don’t come here anymore.

How’s that for a mouthful of reality?
—T.J. Dec. 13 '04 - 08:59PM #
“We are just as educated as you so get over the fact that segregation ended and we’re here.”

I just wanted to point out that this is clearly the dumbest thing that has ever been posted here.

Honey, nobody wants segregation. Nobody supports that. This isn’t the 60’s. Being against affirmative action because it is RACIST does not make the person who opposes it racist. It makes YOU a racist for supporting it.

And no, you are nowhere near as educated as I am. How’s that?
—T.J. Dec. 13 '04 - 09:01PM #
“How’s that for a mouthful of reality?” -t.j.

pretty pathetic…too much rhetoric, blind rage, and shock talk, not enough of them, what do you call them??? ummmm, facts…

hey, you asked, didn’t you???

always the critic,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 13 '04 - 09:02PM #
“And no, you are nowhere near as educated as I am. How’s that?” -t.j.

i mean come on, not even livshiz (the law student) or any of the grad students can match the intellectual superiority of t.j…

i, for one, am waiting to read his new sociology book:

Shut Up, Asshole: A Scientific Study and Quantative Analysis on the Evolution of Why You Suck (to be published on the University of Go Fuck Youself Press)...

-an overly intellectual ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 13 '04 - 09:06PM #
“The bottom line is this. I didn’t enslave anyone. My ancestors didn’t enslave anyone. You were never slaves. Yet you expect me to give you my seat and pay for you to attend.” -t.j.

to clarify for teej, i think the point is not the fact the whites once enslaved blacks, but that such an insitution creates an institutional divide that still exists today, which were perpetuted in the black codes of reconstruction, then later jjm crow, redlining in the north, etc.

clarity,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 13 '04 - 09:15PM #
People. people. people.

Since there are no biological links between melanin production and intelligence, the many racial rate differences (pay, crime, homeownership, unemployment, education, death) in the US must be social in nature. Social problems require social solutions and by nature some of the solutions put in place to encourage racial rate equality WILL NOT benefit white people.

This fact puts fear in some people. Fear drives racism, fear drives ignorance and unfortunately, FEAR drives our country. There are many SCARED people in our midst, and fear cannot be rationalized.

If you are white you may be afraid that affirmative action will lead to: job equality, home ownership equality, income equality, OR equality in many opportunities of many kinds across races. The fear lies in the fact that when there is equality there is no white privilege, and all of a sudden white people will be just as likely to be poor, be violent, die, go to jail, or even to be discriminated against as blacks and other people are. Racial lines in this country will no longer benefit ANYONE.

If I were white, this would also scare me. But I am not white, and I am not male, and I am also not apologetic, in any way, to people who have been using unearned privileges but who are up in arms when, for the first time EVER in this country, it benefits a person to be something other than WHITE.

If there were a sign that said “PEOPLE OF COLOR LINE UP HERE TO GET THINGS JUST FOR NOT BEING WHITE” – I would be the first one it.

Because there were and are many signs like this for whites, posted all across America in the form of slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, redistricting, poll taxes, drug laws, welfare reform, educational policies, etc. All of these things benefited whites while discriminating against other people but more importantly set a tone that made racism and ignorance acceptable to many white people in this country today.

Let’s just see where this goes in the courts.
—Kenya Hunter, U of M Alumni and Grad Student Dec. 13 '04 - 10:27PM #
- – -
I am gender-blind
...
—T.J. Dec 13, 6:59pm #

...

Honey, nobody wants segregation.
...
And no, you are nowhere near as educated as I am. How’s that?
—T.J. Dec 13, 7:01pm #
– - –
“”“Honey”“”? How is that “gender-blind”??

Can’t wait for Ari’s comment (and others’),
—David Boyle Dec. 13 '04 - 11:53PM #
I think it’s T.J’s quiet time now.
Shhh…
—Kadija Dec. 14 '04 - 12:14AM #
TJ, Free passes? I, a black woman, and just like you(according to you) have fought to get to where I am. I, like you, will not give up MY seat so YOU can attend. Cause damn it it’s MY SEAT- I worked for it, I wasn’t GIVEN, I earned it. Rejection, get used to it! Blacks and other minorities have… UM is a large school and everybody will not be able to attend. Head to head, my grades, my extracurricular, my SAT/ACT, and leadership surpassed Jennifer Gratz on every level. Should she have applied years later, or if someone with her exact same qualifications applied in 2002- would I have taken their spots? No, Im just better than them—get over it! That whites consistenly refer to admission issues as “my seat” “my spot” demonstrates the entitlement that racism has implanted in minds. Its not YOUR spot, Its mine, not because Im black, but because I’m better!

“Compensation for emotional distress” Are you serious?
Where’s MY forty acres and a mule?
I’m a black woman on this racist campus—please know I am distressed!

Finally, being “color blind” is not the solution. Although race doesn’t real biological grounding, its very real, and affects peoples lives in real ways. Don’t ignore my race, its a part of who I am. Being blind to my blackness, is being blind to me. And consequently allows for the same type of erasure from society that has created the need for affirmative action.
—Lauren Wilde Dec. 14 '04 - 12:53AM #
T.J. (sorry for being so long, but I hope it helps)

To start, (someone correct me if I’m wrong) I believe that 20 points for race, 10 points for class (that’s you TJ), but no person can receive both. Therefore, working-class people of color are getting f**ked over even in this system. Also underrepresented counties like the UP receive points – these counties are primarily white.

As a fellow white, working-class student I too am frustrated by my lack of resources available to me throughout my entire life. I have no doubt you have worked hard to overcome your class barrier. With the holidays approaching I can see you sitting among your family in silent awe, completely separated from their working-class world – only intensified by the isolation you feel among elites because their childhoods are something of a wonder to you. Yes from your limited perspective, AA should only exist to counter-balance class. I intentionally pull at your emotional cords because I want to open your heart and eyes to other barriers such as gender and race that have not infringed upon your development as a human being. By the way, it is your privilege as a white male that allows you to choose to remain blind to the hardships of race – institutionalized racism effects even upper-class minorities.

If personal narratives from women and people of color are not enough, I happen to know of a study (if you want specifics it’ll take some rummaging through my closet but I’ll manage it for you). If memory serves, they took a group of students and separated them into two groups mixed with race and gender. In one room researchers said the test was inconsequential and that they were only noting testing quirks, but in the other room researchers said the test scores were very important. In the first room there were no statistical differences between scores due to race, but in the second room whites on average scored higher than people of color. The main point is that racism can become internalized within a person of color thus negatively affecting them in many unseen ways – like those pesky test scores.

I suspect not only did you suffer from lack of resources due to class, but that you also have had to overcome many personal/mental/emotional conflicts often indescribable to upperclassmen. Things are never just black and white, but rather a kind of foggy gray cloud settling over us.

LOL – oh my I am really trying to avoid studying!

good luck,
chelsea
—Chelsea Dec. 14 '04 - 01:15AM #
I would not mind the University paying back the money if they also agreed to pay back the money to those other qualified African American students that were not enrolled. When they say reimburse the money to Asian and White students for not being enrolled, is that being said on the assumption that EVERY African American student who has ever applied to the University of Michigan has been enrolled? It is proposterous to think so. More so it is incorrect to think such a thing. By thinking that there has never been an African American that was qualified to attend this University but was rejected of admission is completely naive and ignorant. If these people who have been denied enrollment actually think things of that sort then they do not deserve enrollment because they are apparently not knowledgable enough to understand truth, which in my opinion, means that they are not knowledgable enough to understand the logic and the studies of such an esteemed University.
Also, will Africans also be reimbursed? Because they, like the Asian students, are also not Americans. Thus meaning that if an Asian who is not naturally born in America can be reimbursed for not being accepted into this school, then so can an African because they are, technically in the same boat. Or shall these African students be denied that priveledge since they APPEAR to be black anyway?
What is quite bothersome about this situation as a whole is the fact that people actually believe that there are not qualified African Americans that were denied admittance into this University. How can these white and Asian “educated” people believe something that is so dumb?
No reimbursement if it is not given to EVERYONE who would have gotten in, regardless of color and ethnicity (whites and asians are not the only ones who deserve that extra $40 in their pockets). Thanks for your time and God Bless.
~Chantal R. C.
—Chantal Dec. 14 '04 - 07:27AM #
“If you are white you may be afraid that affirmative action will lead to: job equality, home ownership equality, income equality, OR equality in many opportunities of many kinds across races.”

Or fear that this kind of thing leads to inequality of opportunity, which is where we are now.

Rich whites have opportunity through money and legacy.

Minorities have opportunity through affirmative action and the like.

Poor whites don’t get either, yet racist minorities like yourself seem to think that it’s ok for me to get fucked while you suck on your silver spoon because your great-great-great-great-great grandfather was sold into slavery by his neighbor.

Absurd.
—T.J. Dec. 14 '04 - 07:28AM #
” Cause damn it it’s MY SEAT- I worked for it, I wasn’t GIVEN, I earned it.”

If you had eighty points before your 20 point free pass, and there was a guy with 99 points and didn’t get a free pass, no you didn’t earn it.

Maybe you would have gotten in anyway. Maybe you wouldn’t have. The only way you would have ever known for sure is if you had checked “other” on the race box and let your credentials speak for themselves.

You didn’t.

You didn’t because you were afraid that without that free pass, you wouldn’t get in. For all your bluster and attempted self-affirmation, you were too afraid to be judged by your credentials, you had to take the free pass.

I have too much respect for myself to do that. If I were ever in a situation like that, I would want to know that I earned my way in. You will never know. How does that feel?
—T.J. Dec. 14 '04 - 07:33AM #
“I believe that 20 points for race, 10 points for class (that’s you TJ), but no person can receive both. Therefore, working-class people of color are getting f**ked over even in this system.”

No. 20 and 20. And even if it were 20 and 10, the minorities still get their 20 no matter what. Still racist, don’t worry.

“Also underrepresented counties like the UP receive points – these counties are primarily white.”

The UP isn’t a county, but I get your point. And I have heard your argument a million times.

The UP people would probably get their 20 for being disadvantaged in most cases. Even if not, that’s geographical diversity. It’s not a proxy for race, it’s simply to keep the school from being 1/3rd West Bloomfield, 1/3rd Grosse Pointe and 1/3rd New Yorkers.

“With the holidays approaching I can see you sitting among your family in silent awe, completely separated from their working-class world – only intensified by the isolation you feel among elites because their childhoods are something of a wonder to you.”

You didn’t tug at my heart strings at all. Almost everyone in my family has died either due to illness or accident, and even when they were alive, there were no family gatherings. It was my mom and I.

Further, I don’t consider the rich to be “elite.” They are rich. The “elite” are the learned in my point of view, and there are precious few of them at Michigan, and even further where I go to school now.

Finally, I attend a school where there is a TON of diversity, I think the percentage is nearly double that of the University of Michigan. They always talk about how their African-American Studies program is the best in the country, and I attend one of the top research institutions in the country. Yet, strangely enough, there is no need for affirmative action. Nobody is losing their seats to a minority at my school. Enrollment continues to increase, and the facilities rise to meet it. Michigan has one of the largest endowments in the country, yet my school seems to find the money to build to accomodate. There are a bunch of minority scholarships, but there is also a TON of money in their need-based program. In the entire time I have been here, there hasn’t been one mention of Affirmative Action or even the need for it.

Do you know why? It’s because the people at my school were brought up believing that you get what you earn. If your numbers aren’t enough to get in here, you go to another school. Maybe you transfer in, maybe you don’t. But the thought of getting in because of some racist free pass is not something to strive for.
—T.J. Dec. 14 '04 - 07:46AM #
“”“Honey”“”? How is that “gender-blind”??”

Uh, who said that “honey” refers to someone of a particular gender?

My dad used to call me that. My uncle used to call his nephew that. My gay friends call each other (and me) that.

Come on, “D-Bo”...
—T.J. Dec. 14 '04 - 07:51AM #
hey T.J.

We were both partly right

http://www.umich.edu/~mrev/archives/1999/summer/chart.htm

20/20 but only assigned to one. I’ll get back to you on the rest later, but I think you avoided the main point of my post.
—Chelsea Dec. 14 '04 - 11:38AM #
I’m sorry T.J, but don’t think you full realize that it doesn’t matter if your great-great-great-grandfather owned as slave, or his next door neighbor did, so long as they both had the same skin color. I may not look it, but my great-great-great grandfather was Irish, a slave owner in fact. I am a decendent of Samuel Adams (brother of John Adams) yet no one would know it from looking at me. When people see your race and allow their prejudices to take over their better judgement, they don’t first think in their mind…”hey, I wonder if that black girl has an once of white in her?” No! they see a dark, mocha skinned woman and they automoatically assume they know where I’ve come from…but they don’t. Racism doesn’t seek out background information. So before you DARE compare yourself to my past: where I’ve been called a “nigger”, a “nigg-let”, and ” a tar baby”, told that I would never amount to anything, told that no matter how hard I work, chances are that I won’t earn as much as my white male counter-part performing the same task; walk a mile in my shoes. Let someone tell you that “your kind” aren’t welcome here. Feel the pain of being rejected because of something you have ABSOLUTELY no control over nor could you EVER change. When I was applying to college my white neighbor told me not to bother applying to the U of M. That there’s no chance I would get in. That I should apply to Eastern Michigan. “Why bother busting yourself to earn Bs and Cs when you could go to Eastern and have a BETTER chance of earning Bs and As?” Did I mention that I’m from ANN ARBOR? Sure you may be socio-economically disadvantaged, but that is something you are able to conseal from the world. People do it all the time. But you do have WHITE PRIVILEGE, because you are able to deny that there is still racism and oppression in our society, covert though it may be. But I don’t think I would ever be able to look myself in the mirror (and remember those hateful names I have been called so many times) and deny that these things still exist without losing a piece of my soul.

Martin Luther King Jr. was assasinated the day before my mother’s 8th birthday. When he died his dream had yet to be realized…and it still does today. Not my grandmother, but my mother. I guess is wasn’t so long ago, now was it?
Think about it.

By the way, I’m loving it here at Michigan!! ;)
—Kadija Dec. 14 '04 - 12:17PM #
‘Further, I don’t consider the rich to be “elite.” They are rich. The “elite” are the learned in my point of view, and there are precious few of them at Michigan, and even further where I go to school now.’—TJ

There are multiple “elites.” Surely there are educated elites (very few people on this planet have a college education). The rich are an economic elite by definition. In my opinion, the “elite” to be most concerned about are those with the most power—and in these times, this is the economic elite. Educated elites have very little power in comparison. In the US, this power is further minimized by the Bush administration, which has a habit of ignoring experts when their opinions don’t serve the administration’s ideology (which is especially dangerous in the case of hard science, IMO).
—Scott T. Dec. 14 '04 - 12:23PM #
By the way I meant to say Sam Adams was John Adams’ cousin. That was a typo. :)
—Kadija Dec. 14 '04 - 12:29PM #
I’ve earned my “seat” (which, by the way, is reserved for NO ONE!!! Get over it!!). I worked my butt of in High school: I had all nighters studying alomst every night, I participated in clubs, projects and charity work, and I got letters of recomendation from 7 people. AND I wrote 4 DAMN good essays (As told to me by my counselor)!! ;) I didn’t have a point system to go by. It’s gone…let it go. Pioneer was no joke, and no one has ever handed me ANYTHING for free, so don’t assume a person of color was admitted to the university based on their skin color. Because, contrary to the views of some, we DO have brains. And on occassion, we do like to use them!!
—Kadija Dec. 14 '04 - 12:41PM #
i think from now one, we shall all refer to t.j. as honey…

actually, what, i think that’s a terrible idea…

t.j,, given all the inequalitity that exists between blacks and whites and such (in housing, income, health, job discrimination, housing discrimination), why is that you feel that this one institution that grants a mere twenty points (and points for other things such as legacies and underpresented counties) mean that minorities have this privilage while poor whites are left out???

i mean, while a poor white and poor black are still both economically fucked by the capitalist system, it is true that a poor white will not be redlined in the way or discriniated in the housing or jobs the way a black person would, statstically speaking, that is???

thoughts???

halfway to 100,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 14 '04 - 01:11PM #
This whole thread reflects a huge failure on the part of the university: after all these years, the build up to the case, the waiting, the decision, and the aftermath, we are hearing the same very tired arguments on both sides. The same ones we were hearing before this whole thing started at the U. (and I was there – I remember), and the same ones we heard throughout its interminable duration. The arguments have not been changed, honed, or even moderated in tone. We all have learned nothing from this whole experience. Two sides are talking past one another, neither directly acknowledging the other’s true argument, just like they were before the lawsuits.

Even more ridiculous now that the case is over. If we’re going to continue this thread, can’t we talk about something more relevant? How about this: has the outcome of the case been good or bad for the university, for minority students, for white students, for diversity, for equality, for the world at large? Yes or no? Why or why not? Or is it too soon to tell? Pipe in on that one. Argue on that one. Geez, at least it’s something worth arguing about at this point and you guys might actually have to come up with something new to do it.
—J. Dec. 14 '04 - 03:30PM #
Look – i know i’ve said this 1000 times (ari hold on to your breaches” but I have a serious problem with the fact that there is societal racism (which exists) justifies any sort of ameliorative action.

Here is my reasoning. Being a Soviet-Born Jew – i have seen a group of people who faced not only societal discrimination (which btw – i can argue is actually worse then what the african-americans faced in the US. Even the slave owning south never tried to PHYSCIALLY exterminate the balck population, Russians did on at least two seperate occasiosn (the two fianl solutions, ironically enough). After the formation of the Soviet state (and after WWII – just to be completely fair) – jews faced excplicit de jure discrimination. THe soviety union had laws that said no more then X% of spots in college so and so to Jews. In many cases, the quota was set at ZERO. And yet, the Soviet Jewish population, without the help of anything even resembling affirmative action mangaged to become doctors, teachers, engineers. In fact, the education statistics were so pronounced that when Jews started fleeing in mass to Israel in the 1970s and 80s the most common joke was that there is simly not enough diseases for all the doctors in Israel to have jobs.

So what is the point of the historical aside. I am in NO WAY saying Jews are better then anyone. We’re not. I am just saying that I think that it is possible to overcome societal attitudes without the aid of things like affirmative actino.

What makes me question the utility of affirmative action even more is that a) it helps furhter intrench racists attitudes. the attitude of “wow, he’s black and at Harvard Law…gee, must be afffirmative action” is a problem. moreover, its one that will get worse. Moreover, i am seeing legal employers start to ask for college (and in two cases HIGH school trasncripts). To me this seemed bizzare – so i asked. the answer – is that b/c which law school you go to acts as a signal as to your competence, employers have begun to seriously qustion the validity when it of that system when it comes to minorities. Not being able to ask for just a minorieis college transcript they ask for all – but then they are able to see why people got in. I find it disgusting (and personally am proud that my firm hasn’t done that). but to me that seems to be counter productive.

If people are qualified, let them in. If they had to overcome racism – put it in an essay, and that can count just as much as me writting how difficult it was to learn english in middle school. But when you start looking at the effects that things like Gratz had…i think its at least an open question whether they help or hurt.

Lastly – Ari – you ask me if i think Supreme Court is god. I don’t. But here is something for you to ponder. Do you want Affirmative Action to be decided on a straight up majority vote? B/c i dont’ think you do (newsflash – it would loose, and loose big); same with abortion (depending on the wording). So then – liberal use the SUpereme court, a counter majoritarian institution to push through their agenda. Ok, fine by me. I have ZERO problems with Brennan and Co, but then, i think its rahter dishonest to say – well, the supreem court cant’ decide what is and is not allowed. And as things stand – they have said again, and again (and before the Federalist society existed for the record) that you can’t have affirmative action to ameliorate past discrimination. And if thats is the case – then thats that. So ari – which way you want to play htis? Let the court decide? or take it to the vote? b/c my guess…right about now – neither option looks welcoming. Sucks huh?

Dave
—David LIvshiz Dec. 14 '04 - 03:33PM #
“Lastly – Ari – you ask me if i think Supreme Court is god. I don’t. But here is something for you to ponder. Do you want Affirmative Action to be decided on a straight up majority vote? B/c i dont’ think you do (newsflash – it would loose, and loose big); same with abortion (depending on the wording). So then – liberal use the SUpereme court, a counter majoritarian institution to push through their agenda. Ok, fine by me. I have ZERO problems with Brennan and Co, but then, i think its rahter dishonest to say – well, the supreem court cant’ decide what is and is not allowed. And as things stand – they have said again, and again (and before the Federalist society existed for the record) that you can’t have affirmative action to ameliorate past discrimination. And if thats is the case – then thats that. So ari – which way you want to play htis? Let the court decide? or take it to the vote? b/c my guessâ€¦right about now – neither option looks welcoming. Sucks huh?”- dliv

listen, pal, firstly, don’t patronize me…i know you think you are better than me because you go to a fancy school and get fancy internships, but that doesn’t give you the right to treat me like some rouge…

anyhoo…yeah, i know a majority vote would lead to the end of affirmative action (you can read my op-ed piece about in the ann arbor news from last summer if you would like)...that said, yeah, i know the court says it, but the fact is that you say because the court says the state doesn’t have the responsibility to stop discrimination, then that’s that…i don’t think the court is that last stop in determining the future of our democracy…

yeah it does suck…the gop controls all three branches of government, television and radio media and many newspapers as well as the forces of industry…but OH NO, academia is liberal!!!! poor conservatives!!!!

-a pitiless ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 14 '04 - 03:48PM #
Listen ari – I was not being any more condesending to you then you are to me. and i dont’ think that my expereicnes at work, or school make me smarter then you. but ari, if you can’t take someeone talking to you the way i do, perhaps you should show others on the list some respect? even if they disagree with you, and aare less then tactfull.

substantivly – its not that the court said state doesn’t have responcibility to stop discriminatino. it does. thats what all the EPC litigation is about. but, that it can’t discriminate now for the sins of the past. and you konw, i think its a good policy. Just like i think reperations should not go to people like me who didn’t suffer in the holocaust, cause our ancestors did.

The reason i defer to the court, is because we have deffered to the couurt on this issue. that wasn’t my call. but we did. well, we made that bed, so lets sleep in it- and lets figure out how to make it work.

the problems with the liberals, is that they are so cock sure that they are right – that they don’t bother listening and understnading the opinions of people liek TJ. The republicans also dont’ – but you know what – they’ve been winning elections pretty damn consistently since 1972. so maybe they are already know what to say. we still don’t. thats what sad. not any one policy.
—David LIvshiz Dec. 14 '04 - 04:16PM #
“The republicans also dont’ – but you know what – they’ve been winning elections pretty damn consistently since 1972. so maybe they are already know what to say. we still don’t. thats what sad. not any one policy.” -livshiz

well, it goes in their favor that the too companies that make 80 percent of the vote counting system are republican party fundraisers…

the usa is the soviet union,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 14 '04 - 05:18PM #
livshiz, the arguement isn’t that affirmative action fixes the sins of the past, but the discrimination of the PRESENT…

that is all,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 14 '04 - 05:20PM #
I won’t be live (WE) liberals feels as though we ae always right. I have read and understand T.J’s point of view, but I also don’t think’s it’s fair for him to compare him self to a group of people whose oppression he obvioulsy knows nothing about due to the fact that he has never, nor WILL he ever, experince it. I don’t pretend to fully understand the feelings of those who survived the holocaust or their decendents. I can recognize that it was an extreme injustice upon an innocent group of people, but I can never understand the anti-sematic experinces that any person of jewish faith might have experinced then or today. I think one reason for people’s frustration with T.J. is that he claims to have experineced discrimination worse than that of the Afircan American people, but find it first unlikely, secondly completely unsupported, and third out-right rediculous that he could even know!
—Kadija Dec. 14 '04 - 05:28PM #
Ari – Conspiracy theories aside, the machines weren’t the same in 1972, or in 1980, or 84. so perhaps we should give them a bit of credit. they win elections. instead of writting it all of as a conspiracy, maybe, just mabye we should take a look at what they are doing right.

as for the current discriminatino. ari – if you actually believe that affirmative actino does that – then congrats. cause you are the only one. i think that in some ways it leads to more racism (see my exmaple above).

Kadija – i agree. totally. i don’t know what its like to be african american. I can’t. But, my point is – affirmative action which seems to be justified on the grounds that one group of people has had it worse then another. and i am not sure we can make that evaluation. its always comparing apples and oranges. Slavery was horrible, so was the holocaust, so was the cultural revolution in China, the war in Vietnam. Now, in that case – either all of them diserve the same help, or none of them do. That is probably TJ’s point (thought, trust me, TJ and I have few similarities in common as best as i can tell).

ok, i really should study :(

Dave
—David LIvshiz Dec. 14 '04 - 05:48PM #
I have an increasing suspicion that T.J. is secretly part black and/or Jewish, but that he is just trying to hide it from us. Maybe he is a distant relative of Livshiz, or, G-d help us, of Ari Paul himself.

Wouldn’t that be exciting? !!

“T.J. Wharry——-
where the ‘J’ stands for ‘Jew’!!!”

We will all love him like a “brother” in any case, I know.
—David Boyle Dec. 14 '04 - 06:09PM #
livshiz, we all know what you THINK…

affirmative action overcomes the societal boundries currently in place that make things like a university education inaccessable to the black and latino community…

hey, affirmative action has problems, and causes racial divides, but that doesn’t mean it discredit what it does accomplish, which is the logical fallacy you over and over chose to get entangled with…pathetic…

you live in a law school bubble,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 14 '04 - 07:15PM #
livshiz, i think it is you who refuses to believe that african americans and latinos suffer discrimination and systematic racism…i mean, i know you have blind faith in the american system, but you dogmatic idealistic and mypopic allegience to the status quo astounds even the most obedient of lapdogs…

just a thought,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 14 '04 - 07:19PM #
true, the voting machine story is only a result of the past few years…but that doesn’t mean its not any less true, even if the republicans ARE better campaigners than the democrats (and, like you, believe that they are…shocker, i know)...

yushencko is my co-pilot,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 14 '04 - 07:20PM #
Livishiz,

The holocaust, Vietnam War and the others that you named were all horrible events. However none of them can be compared to slavery becasue they did not destroy the culture which is a basis for a people or seny the people a knowledge of their history and where they came from. In each of the events you named the cultural aspects of the people are all intact for the most part. Whereas in slavery almost nothing (except for the rythmatic beat of black music) is left. That makes a huge difference. If you cannot recognize that I dunno what to tell you. Plus when they were over the institutionalzation of oppression in a country dominated by another race was not present.
—Janee` Dec. 14 '04 - 10:12PM #
Ryan,

You dont go throughthe same obstacles because you are white. Niether do asians because although they hace experinced racism in this country as do all immigrant people. Their has not been an institutionalized form of racism to systematically hold them back. And whetger or not you want to admit it poor or not you are white white people identify you as white and you recieve white privilege regardless. On an interview no one asks if you are poor or rich but the color of you skin is apparent. The truth is that grave that has been dug for the Black community by previous outwardly racist systems is now being covered by people who belive in whote pivilege and dont know it because they have never had to live in a world outside of it. In the end your obstacles will never be the same because you will never live outside of white privilege and the belief in white entitlement.
—Janee` Dec. 14 '04 - 10:20PM #
T.J

By the Way T.J is just angry cause he didnt get into the law-school. Yhe fact is you couldnt cut it so get over it. It wasnt Afirmative Action that kept you from getting in it was you. No underqualified minority took your spot. And by sheer numbers if anyone underqualified took your spot they were white. In the end T,J you kept yourself from getting into law school. This is clearly evident by your inane arguments that are not substantial in any shape or form. And by your inability to understand complex problems beyond your own self-construction. If lawyers are supposed to think critically then you are definitely NOT LAWYER MATERIAL AND THATS A FACT!!!!!!
—Janee` Dec. 14 '04 - 10:27PM #
You forgot Native Americans, Ari
—David Boyle Dec. 14 '04 - 10:50PM #
And, as for our “wonderful” court system:
_ _ _

News Watch
Judge Suspended for Wearing Blackface

New York Lawyer
December 14, 2004

By Janet McConnaughey
The Associated Press

NEW ORLEANS—A judge who wore blackface makeup, handcuffs and a jail jumpsuit
at a Halloween party will be suspended for six months, the Louisiana Supreme
Court ruled Monday.

The justices voted 5-2 to suspend Judge Timothy Ellender for a year without pay
for dishonoring his position, but to defer half of that penalty. Ellender will
lose more than $50,000 in pay, one judge noted.

Ellender, who is white, testified the costumes worn by him and his wife—she
was dressed as a policewoman—were meant only as a joke to show he was her
prisoner. The party’s host, Ellender’s brother-in-law, was dressed as
Buckwheat.

The justices agreed Ellender did not mean to insult blacks. Nevertheless, they
ordered him to take a sociology course “which will assist him in achieving a
greater understanding of racial sensitivity.”

Phone messages left with Ellender and his attorney, Bill Bordelon, were not
immediately returned.

Jerome Boykin, head of the Terrebonne Parish branch of the National Association
for the Advancement of Colored People, applauded the ruling.

“The Supreme Court sent a strong message that the court won’t tolerate racist
acts by judges,” he said.

Bordelon argued Ellender should not be punished because the blackface incident
occurred only once and was not persistent behavior. But Justice Chet Traylor,
writing for the majority, said the incident was damaging.

“The negative shroud cast upon the state’s judiciary by Judge Ellender’s actions
will only be lifted by time,” Taylor said.
– - –
Oy gevalt!!!
—David Boyle Dec. 14 '04 - 11:19PM #
wow.

how the hell is that not racism? he dressed in that way to give the impression at a party that he was her “prisoner”?

i am speechless. hard to believe that people in this country think racism does not exist.

thank you for bringing that article to my attention.

happy studying for finals.

peace,
sam
—sam Dec. 15 '04 - 01:03AM #
TJ, honey, who the hell do you think you’re kidding with this line of cock-a-loopy about “only having to prove that you could pay for it” to get into Harvard in 1900? Are you smoking crack?

It is of course true that W.E.B. DuBois got a Ph.D. from Harvard in 1896. But there’s a reason why we remember that so well, and it’s not because it was common.

Not sure when the quotas on Jews started-it wouldn’t surprise me if it were later (1910s). (By the way, that wasn’t a quota for the number one “had to” admit-it was a number above which the institution would not go no matter HOW qualified the applicant was.)

I’m sure you know of these things. Why in the world would you make this ridiculous false claim here?

Hmmm. AP
—AP Dec. 15 '04 - 04:18AM #
I’m so glad everyone seems to hate the “teej” (my peronal fav nick name by ari) attitude as much as I did after reading his comments…he’s very obviously wrong about so many things that ppl have already addressed—but what came out of the blue (hilariously) was the MSA bashing:
“Go to an MSA meeting, at least when I was there, and you will find quite a few rich white people who just plain aren’t bright.”

Also, I wanted to say to livshiz that I’m all for encouraging more liberals to work within the sys in order to change it, but I don’t think protests should be discredited as important political strategies.

It gives people who may not have the privilage to go to meetings and work on social change all the time (b/c they are working 2 min wage jobs etc.) a chance to get involved and feel empowered during a day of protesting—this helps build a base of volunteers who can then network etc.

It’s also a great way to raise public awareness about concerns and gain supporters, especially if it recieves media coverage.

Non-violent protests HAVE gotten results in the past so no dissing them.
—clara Dec. 15 '04 - 05:06AM #
clara,
let me put livshiz’ world into perspective…for him:

-the east germans should not have demanded that the wall be turned down, they should have worked with the communist puppet goverment…
-it was wrong for the jews to fight back in warsaw during the rebellion…they should have lobbyed in berlin and bargained with the nazis…
-the tienenmin demonstrators were acting like children…that’s the reason the chinese govewrnmnet doesn’t listen to them…

get it now?,
ari p.
—Ari P. Dec. 15 '04 - 01:19PM #
“You didn’t because you were afraid that without that free pass, you wouldn’t get in. For all your bluster and attempted self-affirmation, you were too afraid to be judged by your credentials, you had to take the free pass. ”

TJ, I’m going to let you KNOW what I KNOW. No Ifs, no maybes—Absolutely, unequiviocally KNOW, without fear of successful contradiction: I got in to the Univ, because of my credentials. I checked the box because I have no reason to hide who I am, I’m black, Im qualified, and I KNEW I was getting in. I wanted them to know that my diverse experiences would contribute to class environments. To suggest that qualified minority individuals would be better off (for peace of mind) by not checking the box, is to say that those receiving the points are unqualified and thats simply not true.
Furthermore I feel spectacular, thanks for asking. I feel great because I have continued the academic excellence that I established in high school. I have continued to receive honors and distinctions, just like the admission officers knew I would.
Let me guess who you feel: BITTER that you didn’t get into liaw school… oh well, life sucks then you die.
—Lauren Dec. 16 '04 - 08:57AM #
Hmm…T.J? T.J? WOW!! You’re being pretty quiet. It’s so unlike you.

=P
—Kadija Dec. 16 '04 - 03:47PM #
ari – time to join the real world. First of all, the Jews of Warsaw were not protesting – they were fighting for their lives. Something they incidently would not have had to do if the liberals were not protesting in England in the 1930s about the need to let Hitler be Hitler.

Second of all, and really, much more importantly, i think the comparisons are unfair. In the first place, people protesting the WB and IMF in DC – are not protesting becuase they have no political say, and live in an autocratic society (which btw – the other three did). These arent’ people from North Korea protesting, its a butch of students mostly from upper and middle evirons, who are upset about matters of policy, not matters of freedom. (i’ve been to a few of these, i haven’t seen many people from Africa coming here to protest).

Moreover, unlike the three examples you named, Ari, in this case – the protests have done more to discredit the actual cause they advocate. The WB needss reform, and so does the IMF – but guess waht – the people who sit at these meetings simply write it off as the screams of loonies. Becuase – its a different culture, its a culture that values a meeting with experts and professors more then the chants of the masses.

So yeah, forcing to think about your exmaples – made me maybe come to a differnt conclusion that that form which i started. Under some circumstances protesting for political freedoms – is effective, however once those freedoms are achieved – and teh question is one of policy, not freedom the tactics should change.

dave
—David LIvshiz Dec. 16 '04 - 06:27PM #
Re “the liberals were not protesting in England in the 1930s about the need to let Hitler be Hitler”, I’ m not so sure; there were various pacifists, but many of the “tolerate Hitler” people were not liberals but ultra-conservative anti-Semites, often aristocrats associated with the notorious “Cliveden set”. (I think the Mitfords were one prominent British family who were photographed with Hitler, etc.)

And there were various leftists (Communists, etc.) who were very anti-Hitler in the 1930’s, I think.
—David Boyle Dec. 16 '04 - 09:22PM #
The thread seems to have died. But I did want to add a comment on this very interesting discussion.

My main point in posting is that many have placed Asians with Whites. There have been a few instances of disagreement in the thread…about two, but I think it needs to be made clear.

Asians are still discriminated against and it is not just about the numbers getting into schools that signifies that racism is over for Asians. For example, just looking at the media’s perceptions of Asians, there are very few first off. For women, we are often oversexed and exotified, lucy lui for instance. When guys come on to me and state that my most attractive feature is my asian looks, they are not complimenting me, and when they look at me they only see all the stereotypes behind me. For men, either they are potrayed as effeminate or kungfu masters. On top of all this, we are never totally accepted as Americans due to our “slanty eyes and yellow face” even though I was born here, grew up here, and though it pains me to admit sometimes, am an American. I will always be considered as coming from a foriegn land.

Another important point is, many point to the fact that asians are doing better off income wise and that’s why they should not recieve AA. 1) considering the issues above, I don’t think that income is going to be enough for me
2) the Asian income distribution is Bi-modal (normal distribution = one bump, bimodal= two bumps)

A good portion of the Asian American population is below poverty level and they are in great need of help. This combined with discrimination that comes with skin color, heavy accents, eyes, and hair results in a heavy burden. But since help and AA is often retracted when dealing with Asians, this group is left to suffer.

Just wanted to bring up some other points. Make the pot brew a bit more. ;)
—stevie Dec. 27 '04 - 05:52PM #

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