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Kiblawi Arrested by Israeli Troops

20. June 2004 • Ari Paul
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U-M grad and Palestinian rights activist Fadi Kiblawi was arrested by Israel Defense Forces “during a West Bank protest against the separation fence on Sunday,” Haaretz reported.

Kiblawi has been living in East Jerusalem this summer traveling through his native land. Last week, Kiblawi photographed and documented occupying soldiers tear gas and open fire on Palestinians praying in the West Bank town of As Sawiya.

Writes Kiblawi,

“Then, the villagers, completely unarmed and impassioned from the destruction, faced the soldiers, who were standing on top of the field now. a small march began with chants of “Allahu Akbar” (God is Greatest). The first Israeli shots rang out, chaos ensued. Everybody scattered, I ducked behind a tree with another Palestinian man. Yelling, somebody was hit, he was quickly carried off by two other Palestinians to an ambulance on the perimeter…What happened over the next hour is a blur, as it was complete chaos. I recall looking in front of me to the left and right there were soldiers and looking to the left of me they encroached. Tear gas cannister fell in front of me, another to the left of me. At first I didn’t feel anything and then all of a sudden my eyes began to burn, I couldn’t breath and I remeber stumbling to the ground to get out of the suffocating cloud. I recall covering my eyes, stinging, with my hands and spitting in my struggles to breath, and just ran as hard as I could.”

Kiblawi was the co-founder of Students Allied for Freedom and Equality, a member of the Michigan Daily’s editorial board for a brief stint, and the Minority Affairs Chair in student government during his tenure at Michigan. He was also the organizer of the Divestment Conference in 2002. He is currently a law student at George Washington University.

  1. Goodbye law career!
       —T.J.    Jun. 20 '04 - 06:25PM    #
  2. Hey, being arrested made Martin Luther King more famous.
       —David Boyle    Jun. 20 '04 - 08:32PM    #
  3. t.j.,
    eh, people have gotten away with worse…besides, there are lot of legal organizations that like to hire constructive troublemakers…

    god bless (insert country here),
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 20 '04 - 11:14PM    #
  4. I wouldn’t really compare Martin Luther King to Fadi . . . I never knew Fadi but most of what SAFE puts on isn’t constructive at all.

    They have in their charter that they support the destruction of Israel. There are a lot of policies of Israel that frankly are just wrong, unethical, and sometimes stupid. But demonization doesn’t get you any closer to solving those problems. It only makes them worse.

    The fence is horrible idea, and I think it’s a waste of money to spend millions of shekels on building a fence you are eventually going to tear down. (And Israel will tear most, if not all of it down)

    It ruins many Palestinians livelihoods and is, among many other horrible things, an eyesore. But, there is only one thing I can think of that that is a good argument for the wall is that it is doing what the Israelis have designed it to do: it has stopped nearly all suicide attacks.

    If you aren’t going to address WHY the wall is going up, if you aren’t going to provide context for it’s construction, then are you really addressing the problem?
       —Jared Goldberg    Jun. 20 '04 - 11:54PM    #
  5. a) as he wasn’t born there its not his native land. Lebanon would be his native land.
    b) as for the fence/wall/barrier – common – it is effective. In February, the International Court of Justice held hearings on the legitimacy of the wall. The State of Israel, while not represented at oral arguments submitted a breif – where they argued that in areas where it is already up terrorism attempts are down by a significant amount. No one, including the palestinians contested the data.

    Like it or not – and whether it is legal or not – an OPEN question (my opinion is that it depends on Israel’s intent) – it works.
       —David Livshiz    Jun. 21 '04 - 12:43AM    #
  6. livshiz,
    it is doing a great job is isolating people and creating more hopelessness for the palestinian people…it is doing a fine job of what its predecessor, the berlin wall did: tear a place apart, isolating the ‘other’, brutally restricting the people, and causing conflict…

    furthermore, on the nativity question…think of it this way, big shot, the last time any member of family set foot in that country was several thousand years ago…yet, if i showed up there tommorow i would get citizenship the same day because the state has deemed that it is MY native land (you made this same argument to me in the basement of east quad two years ago: “its like european nations that grant citizenship if your parent was born there, israel just traces the linage further”, your words, not mine), fadi’s parents were born there, so his family has been there much much more recent then mine…
    so if israel gets to trace back hertiage for me thousands of years so as to say that israel is my native land, then it sure as hell is fadi’s land too…

    one state, complete, for all,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 12:55AM    #
  7. to make the message simply livshiz…you are saying that fadi’s native country is lebandon, because that’s were his family sought refuge when they were kicked out of israel…your family ended up in russia (in the dispora) after we (the jews) were booted from the land of israel…so by your logic, your native land is russia…and thus, by your logic, you would have just as a little a right to be in that land as he does…

    or is there a double standard for palestinians (and arabs in general) that you are trying to explain to me here???

    you can’t make a sound
    from six feet underground,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 01:11AM    #
  8. I met Fadi at 2 conferences, and was quite impressed by his prolific work and general niceguy manner. As for whether he’s MLK material,that’s rather an unfair comparison, but he did write an excellent piece on the misappropriation of MLK…
    And no, an arrest at a nonviolent protest should not hold back anyone’s law career. I am of course worried about his safety but I hope his us passport will protect him from the Abu Ghreib style treatment of Palestinians in Israeli prisons.
       —Jesse    Jun. 21 '04 - 01:39AM    #
  9. Fadi is a “nice guy” until he thinks you might, in some way, shape or form, support Israel. Then he shows how “nice” he is by calling you a racist to anyone who will listen.

    There’s a reason why he is viewed as a terrorist by the vast majority of campus. He’s dangerous, he’s insane, and he’s now in jail.

    And the protest was NOT “non-violent.”

    His law career is over before it started, and that is a GOOD THING.

    If you have ever seen what happens when someone argues with Fadi or Fadi doesn’t get his way…well…it’s explosive (pun intended).
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 02:12AM    #
  10. “he’s now in jail” -t.j.

    he may not be…it is possible that he has been released by now…story still emerging, but the au will keep you informed as the story unfolds…

    “And the protest was NOT “non-violent.”” -t.j.

    can you verify that??? i cannot verifiy that it was, so i’m not making an assertion either way…but you seem to be mighty sure, so i would hope you could prove it…

    just the facts,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 02:37AM    #
  11. His law career isn’t over. He’d have to be convicted of something first. And even if he was, if it was in the course of non-violent protesting, it probably won’t matter.

    But it is absolutely true that Fadi considers anyone who disagrees with him on Israel/Palestine to be scum and treats them as such. He’s a very unpleasant person if you’re not nodding while he’s talking to you.
       —Jay    Jun. 21 '04 - 02:44AM    #
  12. I saw Kiblawi in Israel… wish I had my Israeli issued M-16 to hit him in the face and arrest him myself—- shame on the gov’t for taking so long to arrest this punk. no room for terrorist wannabees in the Holy Jewish Land.

    God bless.
    -Dick D
       —Dorfman    Jun. 21 '04 - 03:09AM    #
  13. “And the protest was NOT “non-violent.”” -t.j.

    can you verify that??? ”

    Yes, I can.

    1. Look at the picture. They don’t drag “non-violent” protesters off like that.
    2. I know Fadi. It wasn’t non-violent, he wouldn’t know how to conduct himself in a non-violent manner.

    The dude almost got fired that summer I worked with him because someone had the nerve to say they were pro-Israel and he jumped the table and lunged at the kid.

    He’s insane.

    As for his law career, trust me, people have been denied admittance for far less. Like I said, exaggerating on your law school apps can and often does keep you from admittance. Being part of a violent pro-terrorism protest…heh…he’s screwed.

    Let’s be honest though…Fadi was never planning to be a lawyer.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 03:32AM    #
  14. sub-par evidence t.j….

    “Look at the picture. They don’t drag “non-violent” protesters off like that.” -t.j.

    yes they do…at the wef protests in new york two years ago, i so a girl, kuyiky young, who was standing on a side walk, get pepper sprayed by cops…this was noted in the ny times…that day, a man wearing a dress walked into the mens room of grand central…when someone complained that a women was in the mens room, upon his exit, nyc cops pushed him to the floor…

    i was looking for hard evidence that the protest was violent, not just speculation from one photo that shows the only violent people being the soldier or just what you know of fadi…

    “As for his law career, trust me, people have been denied admittance for far less.”

    dude, someone once applied to harvard from prison and got in…its actually an interesting story, but is immaterial in this case because i think you missed the point…he is ALREADY at law school…

    “Being part of a violent pro-terrorism protest” -t.j.

    you have yet to prove violence, or any association with terrorism…it was, as haaretz reported a protest of the wall…and haaretz itself did not make these accusations of him…

    i know sensationalism is your thing, but come on…

    why the hell am i still awake?,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 03:46AM    #
  15. “I know Fadi. It wasn’t non-violent, he wouldn’t know how to conduct himself in a non-violent manner.” -t.j.

    did he ever hurt anyone during msa meetings??? or daily meetings??? or at the conference??? or at high profile demos??? and if he did, as you claim, why are you the only person that knows about it if he is so public???

    calling your bluff,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 03:49AM    #
  16. “dude, someone once applied to harvard from prison and got in…its actually an interesting story, but is immaterial in this case because i think you missed the point…he is ALREADY at law school…”

    Admitted to the BAR, genius. Try to follow the conversation.

    “did he ever hurt anyone during msa meetings??? ”

    He got fired from MSA for his violent behavior.

    Physically, I don’t think anyone would ever be afraid of him. He’s 5’10” and 125lbs. That’s not how he is dangerous or violent. You should know that. Nobody would ever be afraid of you, but you could strap yourself up with a bomb and kill a boatload of Jews. You’d probably like that, other than the you dying part. Same with Fadi, except I think he’s crazy enough to think that he would live through a suicide bombing.

    Not bluffing at all,
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:18AM    #
  17. The inaccurate portrayal of Fadi Kiblawi on this discussion is extremely sickening. Fadi got arrested trying to accomplish a difficult task – defending peace, justice, and human rights in a country (Israel)-which is void of any of these concepts and which has still not come to terms with what it means to be a civilized nation.

    Fadi Kiblawi is originally from the 1948 village of Tarshiha in Historic Palestine – not Lebanon, America, or Kuwait. The level of courage and dignity Fadi Kiblawi possesses is a level much higher than anyone on this list could dream of possessing.

    A real lawyer upholds the principals of justice anywhere in the world, independent of an individual’s religion or ethnicity. I know that is a difficult concept to grasp for those of you who are insistent on the demise of Fadi’s law career. His law career is not in your hands whether you like it or not, if anything his arrest only emphasizes his commitment to the priceless values of freedom and equality.
       —Amenah    Jun. 21 '04 - 09:16AM    #
  18. “Defending peace, justice and human rights?”

    Sure, with a desire “to strap a bomb to one’s chest and kill . . . . The enemy is not just overseas, the enemy is also amongst us…”
    (Kiblawi, Fadi, “A Perspective on Palestine while High on Vicodin”, Al-Risalah, University of Michigan, Spring Edition II, June 24, 2001.)
       —Andrew Yahkind    Jun. 21 '04 - 09:42AM    #
  19. Actually Amenah – a real lawwyer upholds the LAW. as i earlier said the status of the fence is an open question under Int’l law – thats why the UN thoguht fit to ask for an advisory opinion, b/c NO ONE is sure what the law is.

    Ari – native – means born there. the state of Israel will not grant me citizenship b/c i am “native”, but b/c its my historic homeland. same with Fadi – not native land, but the historic homeland of his people.

    As for efficay – i am touched by your deep concern about saftety of Israelis, however two things make me question your analysis. well three, actually. 1) you are NOT a military professional, have not read the data and are in NO position to give an analytical answer. 2) rather you talk about lots of sociological issues – which, while quite logical, can get trumped by empirical evidence – which you don’t have. and yet 3) isreal does – after the wall around Gaza was put up, attacks from gaza into Israel declined by several orders of magnitude. Same deal here. Ari – i reapeat, not one country (plus the representatives of the PLO) who spoke at the ICJ hearings questioned the efficacy of the wall.

    On a seperate note – the berlin wasn’t about saftey – it was about keeping people in, this one is about keeping people out.
       —David Livshiz    Jun. 21 '04 - 10:02AM    #
  20. Ari,
    You have such a rich ignorance of history that it would be funny were it not so sick. Comparing the berlin wall to the security fence is like comparing prisons to concentration camps. There is simply no common denominator. The fence is not trying to isolate the “other” as you so pompously and incorrectly proclaim unless by the other you are referring to terrorists, because that is exactly what the fence is doing. Instead of writing so mnay opinion pieces you could gain a lot by actually reading the news section of the newspaper. CHeck out this article about the fence.
    7441302553&p=1078027574121. The intention of the fence is not to promote hopelessness of the Palestinian people, it is designed to stop terrorists from killing innocent Israeli civilians (I am not sure if you are aware that Palestinian terrorism directed against Jews in Israel and elsewhere for that matter has been a problem over the last couple of years.) A collateral benefit of the fence is that hopefully the Palestinian people will realize that a terrorist campaign agaisnt Israel will not spur Israeli concessions but rather will only lead to more bloodshed on both sides. Perhaps it would serve the peace of the world more if “peace activists” like you and Kiblawi stopped attacking Israel’s right to defend themselves through erecting security fences and starting protesting the problem, Palestinian terrorism.
       —david    Jun. 21 '04 - 10:39AM    #
  21. All the cowards who ever tried to smear Fadi’s image, silence his cause, or intimidate him from moving forward in his fight for peace and justice should take a look at this situation and realize just how hypocritical every single arguement they ever made against Fadi has been.

    In the face of such brutal, inhumane, and callous occupation and mistreatment at the hands of the IDF, at least Fadi had the courage to stand up and fight for what is right.

    Apartheid cannot last forever…it didn’t in South Africa and it won’t in Palestine.
       —bashar    Jun. 21 '04 - 10:50AM    #
  22. and if Isarel was engaged in apartheid, i’d be worried. No one is trying to silence Fadi. I think TJ is wrong, he is basically a good guy, who gets over emotioanl sometimes. No big deal. after this incident he is likely to be declared persona non grata – and that will keep him from any further arrests.
       —David Livshiz    Jun. 21 '04 - 11:00AM    #
  23. I didnt know Fadi was born in 1948… thanks for the history lesson paul
       —Dorfman    Jun. 21 '04 - 11:08AM    #
  24. I’m interested in reading the haaretz article. Does anyone know the link as I didn’t see a link to it? I want to read the article as reported.
       —Stuart Wagner    Jun. 21 '04 - 11:09AM    #
  25. I only knew of Fadi my freshman year, interestingly, my neighbors and new friends (a Syrian and her Palestinian friends) in Georgetown know him by reputation in the Palestinian movement. When they found out I went to Michigan they asked me if I knew Fadi, to which I responded that I had only heard of him and his involvement with SAFE. Even though they had never met him, they knew a lot about him, and it amazed me how connected everyone is within both sides of the debate. My friend Jehad (spelt with an “e” because his parents didn’t want him to be thought of as “holy war”) brought up the incident with SAFE, and the accusations of Fadi being a terrorist and almost being expelled. I remember hearing a little about possible expulsion, what was the real story though(as far as kicking Fadi out of U of M)?
       —Paul Teske    Jun. 21 '04 - 12:00PM    #
  26. While I think this is all quite amusing, I’m not going to believe any of it until it is substantiated. The picture posted on Arborupdate looks painstakingly photoshopped; if you check out Fadi’s blog,( he’s photoshopped pictures more elaborate than this one….in addition, nothing is even mentioned on the blog.

    Furthermore….exactly why does Fadi have pictures of his expeditions in Israel/Palestine on some lawfirm’s website?
       —Brad    Jun. 21 '04 - 12:27PM    #
  27. Good Job fadi for putting your principles into action. I hope that your american passport will keep you from being abused like so many other palestinians by the Israeli “defense” forces. As for all of the arrogant racist pro aparthied statement No reason to comment. Again Fadi thanks for showing us what real International Solidarity looks like.
       —Neil    Jun. 21 '04 - 12:46PM    #
  28. I’m saying that there’s about an 8 percent chance this is actually real. No Israeli newspaper or news source of any kind has any mention of Fadi Kiblawi.
       —Jon    Jun. 21 '04 - 12:50PM    #
  29. ahm…nor would they. names of people arrested (usually) are not released until post processing…so look for it tomorrow at the earliest. as for brad – its his mothers consulting firm if my memory strikes me correct.
       —David Livshiz    Jun. 21 '04 - 12:57PM    #
  30. All,
    That picture was taken by a AP newswire Photographer with the caption: “Israeli forces struggle with an American peace activist as they try to arrest him during a demonstration protesting against the construction of Israel’s separation barrier, in the village of Azawiyah, in the northern West Bank, southwest of the Palestinian city of Nablus, Sunday, June 20, 2004. (AP Photo/Kevin Frayer)” You can find it on Yahoo News
       —Neil    Jun. 21 '04 - 01:13PM    #
  31. Thanks for clearing that up!
       —Brad    Jun. 21 '04 - 01:22PM    #
  32. I take it back. fair enough …
       —Jon    Jun. 21 '04 - 01:28PM    #
  33. Check this out….. he is shown being arrested (and it shows the brutality of the IDF). Thats what happens when you fight for freedom in a land where the people are oppressed. link
       —P.K    Jun. 21 '04 - 01:30PM    #
  34. On Fadi,
    I was at Georgetown with Fadi, where he physically interrupted a peaceful movie about women and the IDF, by standing up and screaming through the question session.
    In addition, I went to his 2002 ‘Palestinian’ Conference, where he asked that a resolution be passed against terrorism, not because he didn’t support it, but rather because he didn’t want the public to think he did. Then his idea was voted down by the majority, who agreed that they shouldn’t give into “Zionist pressures” and that they shouldn’t pass it because many of them do support terrorism. The ensuing debate revealed that activists from Chicago believed suicide bombing was an effective means of resistance. In addition, Al-Awda sold a wildly popular shirt that said, “From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free,” which sold out completely on the first day. In contrast Jews for Peace in ‘Palestine’ and Israel, sold 3 tshirts the entire conference, which talked about a peaceful, just resolution.
    Fadi, like his gang of thugs/activists, is a violent racist individual. And his is also a lucky guy, that he was only detained by the IDF. If he had protested in his native county, they would have put a bullet in his head and moved on. He, like all ‘Palestinians,’ depends on the fact that Israeli soldiers act with tremendous restraints… unlike the way that Arabs deal with their protestors ANYWHERE in the Arab world.
    Also, please stop being such an apologist Ari. Rather than think about the desires of racist, imperial Arab society, which wants to establish a 2nd ‘Palesitinian’ state (after Jordan), think about the needs and heritage of your own. Besides the Arabs are just using you because you are willing to betray your people… you don’t mean anything to them and they would kill you in just the same way they would kill any real Israeli they could their hands on. Trust me, I spend day after day reading Arabic newspapers and books, and you are just as much a kaffir in their eyes as I am. If you don’t believe me, go spend some time in Egypt or Jordan, and watch what “peace” has brought with them.
       —Yaakov    Jun. 21 '04 - 01:40PM    #
  35. Considering the fact that Fadi has supported known terrorists before, I don’t find it hard to believe that he instigated his arrest by IDF soldiers. He did pay for Sami Al-Arian, a known terrorist supporter, to come to Michigan to spread lies and propoganda. It was only a few months later that Al-Arian was put in jail for sending money to terrorist groups across the Middle East. Logic says that Fadi didn’t simply stand there waving his Kafiah and then was dragged away and put in jail by the Israelis. Forgetting the debate over the fence, Fadi most certainly deserved to be arrested and should not be made a hero or martyr for what he has done.
       —Jonathan Goldberg    Jun. 21 '04 - 01:42PM    #
  36. You racist zionists can’t continue your opression of the Palestinian people forever.

    “I just received word from a friend of some friends who is in Palestine with Fadi. Apparently he was released about an hour and a half ago and he’s fine.”
       —John Simon    Jun. 21 '04 - 01:50PM    #
  37. Yakov, who is the racist here? you are apealing to Ari’s bloodline (!!!) to support the policies of a Likud Government run by a man that was found “indirectly” responsible for the murder of 700 people by an Israeli Tribunal. Those people were obviously self hating Jews that wanted the destruction of the State of Israel too, right? Why is it every time someone attacks the policies of Israel they are anti-semites??? If I say Idi Amin of Uganda was a murdering bastard does that make me A racist who hates blacks? These arguments just sound foolish. I think Bush is a murdering bastard, and the policies of the US government are destructive to the world! That obviously means I want to drive all white people into the sea right? come on!
    Neil for a free Palestine
       —Neil    Jun. 21 '04 - 01:54PM    #
  38. Ari:

    One state “complete for all” isn’t the best solution. Many believe it would bring peace and harmony to the land, but, frankly, the way things are, it will only bring another Lebanon or Yugoslavia.

    Secondly, your criticisms of the law of return are well founded. That’s why I think with a two state solution is the best way to be fair. Jews would have a right to return to “Israel” and Palestinians to “Palestine.”

    I know some are going to be upset over that stance, but honestly, think about it: how can Jews and Palestinians practice self-determination? Just think about that.

    I wasn’t slamming Fadi. I don’t even know him. I only know about him through reading about his activities with SAFE. And, frankly, his activities are not constructive.


    As far as I can tell, there are no Abu Ghraib style torture situations in Israel. Not to say questionable, immoral, and illegal practices have not taken place. They have. But, I think the Israeli Supreme Court has done wonderful things (funny, no one ever criticizes the Supreme Court in Israel, I wonder why) in ruling in favor of Palestinian grievances. It outlawed all forms of torture in 1999. The United States has yet to do an equivalent.


    “Fadi got arrested trying to accomplish a difficult task – defending peace, justice, and human rights in a country (Israel)-which is void of any of these concepts and which has still not come to terms with what it means to be a civilized nation.”

    Not only do I disagree, but, frankly, I think this statement is said out of complete ignorance or complete bigotry. Either way, it is inaccurate. Not only is Israel a civilized nation, it is more civilized than all of its neighbors, but many in other parts of the world. In what other country have non-citizens petitioned the Supreme Court and won?

    You may find Israel’s policies in the West Bank and Gaza Strip questionable and wrong. On many of them, I’d have to agree with you. Checkpoints, roadblocks, etc. But, to look at those policies and say Israel has no respect for human rights is a joke. You may see all Israeli soldiers as abusive, while someone on the opposite side may see all as compassionate (Israeli soldiers provide doctors and mediocre medical care to people at checkpoints, things like that). In truth it is something in the middle.

    The truth is, I don’t think Fadi’s protesting of the wall is getting it any closer to being taken down. Simply because, I think, he’s not addressing why it’s going up. Or that it’s working in preventing what it was designed to do.

    Many people, including Noam Chomsky, have rejected the blanket analogy of Apartheid to Israel. I have as well. If you mean the occupation can’t last forever, you’re right. It can’t. And it won’t.

    You can use whatever analogies you want. It doesn’t mean you’re correct.

    And Ari, do you have the Haaretz link to that story? I, too would like to read it.
       —Jared Goldberg    Jun. 21 '04 - 02:03PM    #
  39. Wow, it’s discussions like these that make me happy I’m a German, where we can be open about our contempt for all the other peoples in the world.
    That being said, couple things:
    First, TJ, your comment #13, where you attempted to “prove” the demostration was violent is a textbook example of an ad hominem fallacy (as opposed to when people just call you a pig fucker). By saying that the protest had to be violent because Fadi had supported violence in the past, you’ve undercut any presumption of logic. You can say that you believe that it was likely violent, or that his background makes him more likely to be part of a violent confrontation, but cannot say without outside proof that the demostration was violent.
    Second: Can you guys hear yourselves? We’ve got each side alledging racism and intolerance, which are probably both true, and having a total lack of meaningful conversation. All of us, with the exception of possibly a few fanatics, want peace in the occupied territories and in Israel. I don’t think that anyone here would seriously begrudge Israel’s total right to exist. From that point, is the fence the best way to get to peace? Maybe. Maybe not. Provide reasons. I think the settlements are more detrimental to peace, but Sharon has been trying to remove them (finally). And the Palestineans need some real leadership, which they’re not getting from fundementalist Muslims and the kleptocrats that run the PA now.
    Talk about those things, talk about whether protests or violence is going to be effective, but cut the bullshit where everyone’s a racist but yourself.
       —js    Jun. 21 '04 - 02:12PM    #
  40. JS-
    You know that old “we are the most moral army in the world” pleas Throwing around the word civilized???? Yes those arabs are savages…... Is it moral or civilized to ethnically cleanse people from their homes? Is it moral or civilized or Democratic (another thing we hear about Israel all the time) to hold 3 MILLION people in Ghettos and bondage with no right to travel, to walk freely, to have ctoizenship? That is not democracty and as long as you have a modern state based on religion and ethinicity that favors one group over another you do not have democracy. Is it moral to use children as target practice? Read haaretz about the new photo exhibit put on by Israeli soldiers. Now you will counter that the palestinians use suicide bombers, and I will say totally that they are unjustified reactionary and abdominable crimes that should be shunned by everyone. They do the Palestinians nothing but harm. I do not see a difference between walking on to a bus, seeing a soldier in the back and blowing yourself up with everyone in it. versus Dropping a 2 thousand pound bomb on a house to kill a terrorist…..and his family, neighbors and passerbys. When The airforce pilto was asked what it feels like to drop a bomb on a civilian area, He stated, ” I feel a slight bump {from the aircraft]”, very moral, very civilized…...... This is a story of cowboys and Indians and the Israelis ain’t the Indians…..
       —Neil    Jun. 21 '04 - 02:32PM    #
  41. If that video isn’t the most framed thing I’ve ever seen in my life, I don’t know what is….It cuts straight to the arrests and teargas without even a precursor of what happened prior.

    No wonder why we need a UN conference against anti-Semitism.
       —Brad    Jun. 21 '04 - 02:35PM    #
  42. Kill dem jooz!
       —Anonymous    Jun. 21 '04 - 02:37PM    #
  43. Brad what does editing a tape of a demonstration in occuipied Palestine have ANYTHING to do with anti-semitism????? please I want to know?? What does throwing rocks at occupation soldiers have ANYTHING to do with anti-semitism??????? Don’t you feel a little silly branding everybody who dislikes the policies of the State of Israel anti-semetic? Its just not going to fly anymore, sorry.
       —neil    Jun. 21 '04 - 02:44PM    #
  44. Anonomys go find another place to be an idiot, that provcation won’t fly either.
       —neil    Jun. 21 '04 - 02:47PM    #
  45. “It cuts straight to the arrests and teargas without even a precursor of what happened prior.”

    Just like they usually cut straight to suicide bombers without discussing the home demolitions, land expropriation, shelling from settlements on Palestinian towns, unfair water distribution, racist policies of the Israeli state, etc etc etc which happened prior.
       —kb    Jun. 21 '04 - 02:48PM    #
  46. Neil-

    You need to calm down, man. It is clear that a large portion of the world (especially the Arab world)has a hard time distinguishing between Jews and Israelis. Israel is the Jewish state, ergo years of baseless hatred towards Jews for actions of the Israeli state. You’re putting words in my mouth, and I don’t appreciate it.

    And KB- your equivalencies don’t really stack up here. Do home demolitions and targeted assasinations of documented killers bear any moral equivalency to a suicide bomber, who kills indiscriminantly?

    I have a hard time putting faith in a fraudulent media that constantly and purposefully frames Israeli soldiers as brutes, when in reality most of the time the soliders are documented as HELPING palestinians….Such is the case of my friend Tuvia Grossman who was stabbed and brutally beaten by a Palestinian taxicab driver who abducted him and dumped him into an Arab villiage. The AP photo labeled Tuvia as a “Palestinian”, and an Israeli soldier that was coming to his aid to fend off the as the instigator. This happens every day and frankly, neil, THAT isn’t going to fly anymore.
       —Brad    Jun. 21 '04 - 03:35PM    #
  47. I’m sorry but since when does standing up for something you believe in, fighting for JUSTICE and EQUALITY make you a terrorist? When you fight for a people who have long been under UNLAWFUL occupation and have been enduring inhumane and uncivil actions brought on by an ILLEGAL OPPRESSOR that certainly does not ‘ruin’ your law career.. in fact, it only brings integrity and honesty to the profession itself. His contributions are endless, as a native- YES, A NATIVE of Palestine he has taken it upon himself to make known of the Palestinian cause, started SAFE- Students Allied for Freedom and Equality and has worked endlessly with people of all kinds who have the same beliefs and one goal: to bring freedom, justice and peace to all Palestinians. And as for his arrest, it is not looked at as a detriment to his education and/or career- it is just even more evidence of his undying love and ongoing struggle to see justice served for his people. If anything Fadi Kiblawi is an example to follow, not just for the Palestinian people but people who are striving for peace and freedom in all countries around the world. As a personal friend of Fadi Kiblawi, I am proud to say that I stand behind him, with him and next to him in all efforts for a FREE PALESTINE. He truly has showed us what real International Solidarity is.
       —Rania Abu-Rish    Jun. 21 '04 - 03:41PM    #
  48. Israel is defending it’s rightful homeland from a Muslim scourge that is intent to “drive them into the sea” and remove them from the face of the planet.

    The Koran teaches Muslims to hate Jews and Christians, and Muslim zealots are doing everything they can to kill as many Jews and Christians as they can.

    If Israel wants to set up a fence or an 80 foot wall, if it saves the life of even one Jew, it’s justified.

    There is no Palestine, there never was, and the Bible teaches us that there never will be. “Palestinians” are Arabs who moved to Israel when the Arabs drove the Jews out. After WWII, the US and Britain came in and gave the Jews back their rightful homes. The pushed the Arabs out in the process, boo friggin hoo. The Arabs had their chance to try to stop them, but the Israelis kicked the garbage out of them again and again.

    The Arabs lost “Palestine” fair and square. Stop being poor losers and just drag your sorry tails off to Lebanon or Syria or some other country where you terroristic bigots are the norm. I hear Iraq is always looking for a few good suicide bombers and/or assassins.

    There is strife in the Middle East. That is a fact. Both Jews and Muslims are doing awful things to one another. That is fact also.

    But the problem isn’t the Jews, the Jews didn’t take anything from anyone. They were given back what was rightfully theirs and they are defending it. They are FORCED to use drastic measures by what the Arabs are doing to them.

    I imagine that these statements are going to bother anti-Semites like Fadi, Neil, Bahar, Amehna and Ari. I don’t care. Before someone claims that I “hate” Arabs or Muslims, I don’t. I “hate” what their “holy” book teaches them. They are helpless in this matter. If they do not adhere to their book, they do not get their 70 virgins and Allah will be mad at them. Thus, they HAVE to adhere to it, and the book teaches them that they are SUPPOSED to kill Jews and Christians and hate everyone else. Their book teaches them that they are SUPPOSED to attack everyone and convert the entire world to Islam by force. They have to do it, or face the wrath of the mythical Allah.

    But someone needs to point out the pink elephant that we’re all ignoring and you people seem to hate me anyway, so I will be the one to do it. The problem isn’t the Jews, it’s the Muslims/Arabs.

    The truth hurts, eh?
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 03:52PM    #
  49. Like many movements before us, we the Palestinian people have to confront proponents and apologists of the most disgusting form of racism: White supremacy masked with Jewish separatist chauvinism. This is the definition of Zionist Israel that was constructed by force on our native land, Palestine. It is nothing but a perpetuation of European anti-Semitism now prosecuted in the heart of the Arab World.

    Fadi exercised his conscience, his morality and his mind. His sacrifice, though small in relative terms, is tremendous to his life and career. We applaud such courage and condemn these racist and hateful attitudes that flagrantly revel in Israeli genocidal and anti-indigenous violence. Shame on those who defend injustice and uphold colonialism. We stand by you Fadi.

    Divestment from Israel is a movement that will ultimately bring down racist Zionism the way it brought down racist Apartheid in South Africa.

    Long live Palestine and all anti-colonial struggles in the world.

    Eyad K.
       —Eyad    Jun. 21 '04 - 03:57PM    #
  50. Brad,
    Where was your friend? when he was attacked by a palestinian? IN PALESTINE? If there were French soldiers on my streets, kicking in the door to my home, French soldiers humiliating me in front of my family taking MY land to build french only towns I WOULD RESIST TOO! you think it is a picnic living in Gaza? And they all Just were born hating jews?
    TJ not even going to bother, I am an atheist all the babble about 2000, 5000 or 1300 year old books means absolutely nothing to me! By the way you are living on Ojibwa land right now, Their god gave it to them for eternity so move on.
    Brad here are your words: If that video isn’t the most framed thing I’ve ever seen in my life, I don’t know what is….It cuts straight to the arrests and teargas without even a precursor of what happened prior.

    No wonder why we need a UN conference against anti-Semitism” so what did I put in your mouth. I agree we need a Big meeting on anti-semitism, we also need a big meeting on anti-arab racism and other bigoties. fighting for your liberation doesn’t make you a racist. The french resistance were not motivated by a genetic hate for the Germans, they were occupied. Read the book “the Bravest battle” about jews fighting in the Warsaw Ghetto true heroes, some even strapped bombs onto themselves to kill their oppressor. Did you know there is a monument in TelA viv commemorating the use of homemade mortars by the hagadash against the british, kind of like the qassam huh?.........
       —neil    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:21PM    #
  51. As somebody who’s family was for the most part exterminated by the Nazis in WWII, I’m also appalled by what is being done to the Palestinians. Israel doesn’t represent the “Jewish People” if there even is such a thing, but rather a criminal state that has used the pretext of Religion and the Holocaust to justify its own crimes against humanity; the murder of innocent people and the seizure of their land.

    As anybody with some sense of justice should know, there is no viable religious justification for the settlement of land, for the declaration of war, or for the enrichment of one people at the expense of another.

    “As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master.” Simply put yourself in the position of a Palestinian, and you must then concede that they are the victims. Though terrorism (violent action against civilians) on the part of the Palestinians is wrong, they act from a position of hopelessness and desperation. The terrorism committed by the Israelis, the Americans, or the Nazis are true crimes because they are perpetrated by the strong against the defenseless. The Israelis have homes, have food and water, and a powerful military – when the Palestinians have none of these things, how can they be expected to give concessions?

    Land is not taken “fair and square,” either from Jews in Germany or from Palestinians in the West Bank.

    Let’s hope Fadi Kiblawi will be alright; he is just one brave youth however. What should concern us is the cause that Fadi seeks to champion.
       —Daniel    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:29PM    #
  52. when i went to sleep there were 15 comments…now there are 50…whoohoo!!!

    stay tuned…i’m updating the story as we speak!!!

    oh and t.j., palestine did exist…it was a colony…

    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:30PM    #
  53. “fighting for your liberation doesn’t make you a racist.”

    1. Liberation? From what? There is, never was, and never will be a “Palestine.” The “Palestinians” are free to go wherever the hell they want, they just aren’t allowed to go blow up Jewish elementary schools and weddings anymore. Oh, the torture!

    2. Israel is defending it’s rightful territory. It isn’t “occupying” Arab land. Here, look at this:

    “I am an atheist all the babble about 2000, 5000 or 1300 year old books means absolutely nothing to me!”

    Oh, so you are ignorant. I see. Not that I didn’t know that you were ignorant anyway, but this just proves it. Good for you. And when you retire from this Earth, there will be a nice warm place for you to spend eternity…well, maybe not “nice” per se…
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:32PM    #
  54. TJ,

    As I read your over-simplified and bigoted commentary, I had a dichotomy of emotions: pity and disgrace. Normally, I don’t become so politically heated toward one side or another as I am a moderate, but in this case, I really feel a need to give you a piece of my mind.

    1.Israel is defending itself from a small minority of Palestinians looking to drive them into the sea. The majority of Palestinians have come to accept that the Israelis are there to stay, whether they agree with it or not, also accepting that a right of return will most likely not be an option in their future. Khalil Shikaki, a Palestinian poller for the West Bank and Gaza, has stated his conclusions in this light. It also was concluded through a Haaretz poll that 90% of Israelis are in support of withdrawal from Gaza, a step in the right direction towards establishing a Palestinian state.
    2.The Koran is a historical document like the torah or the New Testament. As a publication, it can’t teach. People can take from the Koran what they want just like you can take from the Torah or New Testament what you want. Radical Muslims teach hatred and justify it through passages in the Koran. There is such a thing as Muslims who don’t support terrorism. Please don’t make that generalization.
    3.“If Israel wants to set up a fence or an 80 foot wall, if it saves the life of even one Jew, it’s justified.”
    Using your logic, you have just said that if you save a Jew with a wall or fence, that justifies its existence…without any limitations. Ergo, if 20 million people died due to a fence preventing them from living, say getting to food on the other side (hypothetically), but one Jew was saved, the fence would be worth it. If you believe this, you are valuing a Jewish life higher than a non-Jew’s life, or millions of lives. Be careful with your words and be logical, please.
    4.There was a Palestine, idiot. The British had sovereignty over it until giving it to the UN in 1947.
    5.Your analysis of the history of Israel is remarkably interesting…for a fairy tale that is. It is also completely inaccurate.
    I suggest you learn how to read; buy several books ranging from Alan Dershowitz to Edward Said. Read across the spectrum, and then make your conclusions. Don’t prejudge.
    6. Your sarcasm is distasteful and insensitive. People like to say “Not all Arabs/Muslims are terrorists.” I don’t like to say that. I say, “Most Arabs/Muslims are not terrorists.” Instead of making accusations, learn how to not be a bigot.
    7. The torah writes about unfairness towards women. Yet you seem to blindly accept is as truth. “The torah says” that Jews are guaranteed Israel. For all we know, 3 guys got wasted in a cave and wrote the torah. You’re religious justification for Israel is just as pitiful as the Muslim justification for Suicide bombings: Both are wrong.
    8. I believe that both peoples will learn to live together in their own independent state because the majorities on both sides yearn for that and because we live in a world of nation states all based on the doctrine of self determination. All people claiming to be a people deserve to have a state of their own. Just because Jews have a Jewish state, doesn’t mean the Palestinians can’t have their own.

    Your wrote “The truth hurts, eh?” Your truth is a delusional.
       —Anonymous    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:33PM    #
  55. “The “Palestinians.” That is the fundamental myth. The reality is that the concept of “Palestinians” is one that did not exist until about 1948, when the Arab inhabitants of what until then was Palestine, wished to differentiate themselves from the Jews. Until then, the Jews were the Palestinians. There was the Palestinian Brigade of Jewish volunteers in the British World War II Army (at a time when the Palestinian Arabs were in Berlin hatching plans with Adolf Hitler for world conquest and how to kill all the Jews); there was the Palestinian Symphony Orchestra (all Jews, of course); there was The Palestine Post, and so much more.

    The Arabs, who now call themselves “Palestinians,” do so in order to persuade a misinformed world that they are a distinct nationality and that “Palestine” is their ancestral homeland. But, of course, they are no distinct nationality at all. They are entirely the same — in language, customs, and tribal ties — as the Arabs of Syria, Jordan, and beyond. There is no more difference between the “Palestinians” and the other Arabs of those countries than there is between, say, the citizens of Minnesota and of Wisconsin.

    What’s more, many of the “Palestinians,” or their immediate ancestors, came to the area attracted by the prosperity created by the Jews, in what previously had been pretty much of a wasteland.

    The nationhood of the “Palestinians” is a myth.”
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:33PM    #
  56. Anonymous,

    Namecalling never won you any arguments.

    Beyond that, I will not respond to someone who lacks the integrity to post under their real name. Post what you believe under your real name and be held accountable for your words. Nobody else seems to have a problem doing that, why don’t you give it a shot?
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:36PM    #
  57. Just watched the video… tough guy Fadi… lol…

    When you try to march into other people’s land, and soldiers with big guns tell you to stop, and you keep going, and they fire tear gas, and you keep going… you are an idiot…what if they would have made it past the soldiers? they would have had to have opened live fire on them for breaking through an international terror-preventing barrier. lucky for your life fadi that they knocked your evil ass down before you made it through.
       —Dorfman    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:39PM    #
  58. TJ,
    Are you in the JDL? your arguements are frightening. And with people like you resistance will be inevitable. neil
       —neil    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:40PM    #
  59. Let’s all calm down and pray that our friend Fadi is well and safe, and everyone else in the region too. That can’t hurt, can it?
       —David Boyle    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:40PM    #
  60. t.j.,
    i suggest you read ‘O Jerusalem’, by the Larry Collins, perhaps the most objective history of the founding of israel…also “One Palestine, Complete”, by haaretz journalist tom segev, about jews and arabs under the mandate…

    you understanding of the history is quite flawed, so i would suggest these things to hone your intelligence on the subject so you could perhaps argue more gracefully and crediably in the future…

    just trying to help,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:43PM    #
  61. Fadi isn’t my friend, but Tyrannical TJ is starting to piss me off.
       —Anonymous    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:44PM    #
  62. Neil-

    You’re right, he was in Palestine – BECAUSE HE WAS TAKEN HOSTAGE BY THE TAXICAB DRIVER and was driven there!!!!

    You indeed put words in my mouth, because you inferred that I deem all pro-Palestinian supporters as anti-Semites, which is something I never said. And, lastly,what the hell are you talking about with the “hagadash”? There was no such group!
       —Brad    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:45PM    #
  63. It is Funny that an educated and a peaceful guy like fadi gets arrested while Occupiers are still free.

    It is also funny that T.J. did not say anything shows that he knows much about the middle east but all he knows that whatever fadi or arabs are doing is no right in his eyes.

    It is pathatic to hear T.J. and others like him talk.

    I do not mind hearing your opinion even if it is different than mine however let’s discuss things and prove it to each other not just to comment about it becuase we do not know much.
       —no one    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:46PM    #
  64. T.J.,
    This is Big Nurse from the Long Gate Mental Institution. Have you forgotten to take your meds today?

    If not, we will have to come for your tranquilizers, and, of course, bring you “home”
       —Big Nurse    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:47PM    #
  65. one more thing…..


    As a scholar such as yourself, I’d appreciate a reference as to where the Torah writes about and condones unfairness to women.
       —Brad    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:50PM    #
  66. “The Israelis have homes, have food and water, and a powerful military – when the Palestinians have none of these things, how can they be expected to give concessions?”

    Maybe they would have it if, instead of fighting the Israelis for the past 50 years, they had just decided to coexist peacefully. You reap what you sow.

    “Land is not taken “fair and square,” either from Jews in Germany or from Palestinians in the West Bank.”

    Land wasn’t what was being taken from the Jews in WWII.

    Further, if you are going to ignorantly crusade against land being taken away from people, you’re going to be busy. The Scottish and British are attacked for taking land away from the Irish. But then, the British took land from the Scottish and Welsh too. But the British had land taken from them in France. And the French had land taken from them by Spain and Germany. The Germans lost some land to the Austrians, the Austrians lost some land to the Czechs. The Spanish lost almost all of their land to the Muslims (but gained it back), not to mention Portugal (which is a point of contention, historically speaking…some say it was given, some say it seceded on it’s own).

    Hell, much like the “Palestinians,” Italy (the Romans) at one time conquered all of Europe, then had it “occupied” by Germans, French, English, Spanish, Austrians, etc. By your Palestine argument, that land should all be Italian now.

    But then, the French conquered much of that land under Napoleon. And the Germans did the same under Hitler. Geez, who holds the rightful claim?

    The point I am getting at here is basically “to the victors go the spoils.” Geography is what it is today because the stronger military power took the land fair and square.

    If the Inca and Maya had been stronger militarily, the Spanish wouldn’t have been able to take their land. They weren’t. The Spanish won and that land is now rightfully Mestizo/Latin.

    Israel was the Jews’ land. The Arabs took it, the Jews took it back. The Romans conquered it and allowed them to stay peacefully (for the most part), and then the Jews left after the Temple was destroyed. The Arabs took it, then the Christians kicked the Arabs out. The Arabs took it back, then the British and Americans kicked the Arabs out and put the Jews back there.

    It’s not the “rightful land” of the “Palestinians” because there are no Palestinians and even if there were, they lost their land fair and square to a stronger military power.

    Deal with it.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:53PM    #
  67. “The torah writes about unfairness towards women. Yet you seem to blindly accept is as truth. “The torah says” that Jews are guaranteed Israel. For all we know, 3 guys got wasted in a cave and wrote the torah. You’re religious justification for Israel is just as pitiful as the Muslim justification for Suicide bombings: Both are wrong.”

    I just think it’s funny that somehow I just became a Jew.

       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 04:57PM    #
  68. To all,

    The fact that an American KID had the rights to be able to be involved a protest yelling “a small march began with chants of “Allahu Akbar” (God is Greatest).” is a testament to Israeli democracy. However chanting those famous lines are along the same lines as the KKK marching in Skokie. Those are the words that have rung out before every single bloody arab riot, and associated with every single suicide bomber.
    Let us not forget this is the same KID that brought in the now charged and arrested(thank God) Sami Al-Arian. Fadi is a great guy, great role model. Please, if the supporters of the arabs would please choose a more honorable character than the ones they choose they might do themselves more good then harm.


    Ezra Drissman
    Students for Israel
    Wayne State University
       —Ezra Drissman    Jun. 21 '04 - 05:00PM    #
  69. Brad,
    the group is Haganah (sp) but you already knew that didn’t you.
    Do you think all those people at the demonstration were jew hating arabs? all those jewish peace activists from Tayush (please don’t tel me that group doesn’t exist because i spelled it wrong)are all really just self hating jews? Brutal occupation creates brutal resistance its unfortunate but the fundemental reason for the violence is the Occupation, it has always been that way, for thousands of years, even when the jews were fighting for their freedom against Rome, or the Souix when they raided settler communities on their land. There is Occupier and Occupied I stand with those fighting for their freedom, the Occupied.
       —Neil    Jun. 21 '04 - 05:01PM    #
  70. Neil,
    Fair enough that you stand with the occupied. However, if the occupied fights for freedom at the expense of the freedom of others, what say you?
       —anonymous    Jun. 21 '04 - 05:14PM    #
  71. “There is Occupier and Occupied I stand with those fighting for their freedom, the Occupied.”

    So what have you done to aid the Native Americans in their fight to rid the white man from their land. Have you moved from America?

    If not, YOU are an occupier and thus a hypocrite.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 05:19PM    #
  72. What I wrote in comment #49, was in response to the shockingly violent and racist attitude towards our people, the Palestinians, by those who claim to support some form of law, order and civil democracy. I must say that although religion can or cannot teach such intensified hate, T.J.’s attitudes are consistent with most Zionists, secular and religious. Zionism is an exclusionary movement that naturally leads to T.J. who sees indigenous people as inferior and deserve extermination. We saw the earliest examples in Deir Yassin, then some in Sabra and Shatilla, and the latest in Rafah. T.J. is not alone in thinking that all our people must die so that he can attain absolute purity.

    This feature of Zionist ideology is shared with Nazism and South African Apartheid. It is also growing in the Bush administration and being nurtured through the dehumanization of Iraqis. T.J: Read Hannah Arendt on how Zionists collaborated with Nazis and how inherently racist your form of artificial national identity is. People are not genetic machines dictated by identity. People make choices. Your choice in supporting racist Zionism is abhorrent.

    Long live Palestine. T.J’s vial attitudes will not belittle Fadi’s actions, on the contrary, they illustrate why they are important. Divestement from Israel and resistance until the end of such attitudes are key. Justice will prevail when T.J. and other Zionists will go down on the wrong side of history as did other exclusionary proponents before them.

    Zionist view: ethnic purity through militarized colonization of Palestine by ethnically cleansing the land. Our view: Equality for all human beings with equal rights to indigenous peoples. Which view can you tell your children and your grandchildren you promoted?

       —Eyad K.    Jun. 21 '04 - 05:27PM    #
  73. anonymous,
    Ofcourse I am opposed to it, We can always point to experiences of individuals as the rule rather then the exception. Am I opposed to some of the tactics people fighting for their freedom use? Yes, Am I opposed to people fighting for their freedom?, absolutely not. If someone robs me and I go back and get my things from him I am not dispossesing him of his freedom. I want a world where people treat each other with compassion, that look at all of us as connected as a species where these division start to fade away over time because they play no useful role anymore. I view the best way to get there is to have people in the world not divided into haves and have-nots. The main way that happens is through self determination and the removal of oppression, physical, economic, racial, etc. The people we are talking about are not something in history books, they still have the keys to their houses! They are in active and present resistance to their own oppression. I am Irish, Millions of Irish died and were driven off their land by the british colonial enterprise. Does that give me a right to go central france by force of arms and kick everyone out and Make an “Irish Catholic” state their because my relatives were celtic from Gaul 3000 years ago?
       —Neil    Jun. 21 '04 - 05:29PM    #
  74. What a great way for the fascist state of “Israel” to reaffirm its position in this world as the “Middle East’s only democracy” by arresting an unarmed peace activist who was protesting the creation of a wall that not only promotes injustice, inequality, and discrimination, but also prevents any means of peaceful co-existence between the two peoples – something that many Jews in “Israeli” society long for.

    Fadi is now free. And it is only a matter of time before all of Palestine shall be free as well. The Zionist machine thinks that it has put an obstacle in Fadi’s way by forbidding his admittance into Palestine ever again. However, I assure all the ignorant people that left negative postings on this board that the only thing your “Israel” has done is strengthen Fadi’s resolve to one day witness the complete liberation of the entire state of Palestine & all its people. It is impossible to ever break the Palestinian spirit that resides within him and the millions of other Palestinians who are absolutely determined to return to their homes and their lands in Palestine.

    If you thought Fadi was a nuisance to the “Isreali cause” before, then you haven’t seen anything yet. Imagine the strength of his resolve now. He truly is & will remain “the ménage a trios” in his “occupier’s bed”.

    Oh, and Dick D. (Dorfman), the comment that you posted: “saw Kiblawi in Israel… wish I had my Israeli issued M-16 to hit him in the face and arrest him myself—- shame on the gov’t for taking so long to arrest this punk. no room for terrorist wannabees in the Holy Jewish Land.” Its insanely stupid, hilarious, and hypocritical. I don’t have the time required to pick your comment apart and describe to you the many ways that you’ve proven yourself stupid. I’d much rather spend it raising awareness about the Palestinian plight, and showing mainstream America how your “government” partakes in state sponsored terrorism. However, I will say that by ending your comment with “God Bless” you’ve only proven the fact that the “Israeli cause” is one that is not religious in nature, but rather politically based around the concepts of colonialism & occupation. The reason that I say this is because not many Rabbis would condone the action of hitting a peace activist in the face with an M-16. Unless, however, they’re only exploiting Judaism & God in an effort to see that their sick & twisted political ideologies become reality. Hmmmm, makes one think, doesn’t it?
    – Nadeem
       —Nadeem Muaddi    Jun. 21 '04 - 05:40PM    #
  75. hey nadeem,
    i don’t think that was really rick dorfman, but someone impersonating him…i’m against that…let dorfman embarrass himself…

    that is all,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 05:48PM    #
  76. Nadeem – nice last point. disagree with most else you say, but great last point.

    Dorfman – you know this has been a while comming, but after this, i am actually suprised it took so long. as i recall (and Ari, please correct me) there was a column that Ari wrote saying that you made him ashamed of bieng Jewish. well, i think i am ready to say that as well. and unlike Ari – i have spent plenty of time working with and for variuos Jewish causes.

    Brad – discrimination against women. how is – a women is not allowed to file for divorce. she can go to a rabbi who can then instruct the husband to file, but a women can not, under halaha, file on her own, sue sponte. different sexes, similarly situated treated differntly – that defiens discrimination.

    as for Kiblawi – see my post above. as a lawyer he’ll be fine – even if he is tried, and convicted in Israel (which incidently he wont be). What this does do is ensure that he will never be taken seriously in the american political process – and that is a shame, b/c what the palestinians lack the most is not impetuous young kids running into walls, but rather sophisticated advocates who can make their case not to leftists, but to the country as a whole – and he had potential there.
       —David Livshiz    Jun. 21 '04 - 05:52PM    #
  77. “and unlike Ari – i have spent plenty of time working with and for variuos Jewish causes.” -livshiz

    that is libel…i was active in my synagouge youth group, as well as the jewish club at my high school (which we called ‘jew crew’)...i was involved in a youth lobbying campaign affiliated with the reform lobby’s office in washington…

    do your fact checking next time,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 05:59PM    #
  78. Nadeem,

    It is curious of you to pick on Rabbis, and accuse them of
    “exploiting Judaism & God in an effort to see that their sick & twisted political ideologies become reality.”

    While just recently a prominent Muslim cleric was arrested in Ohio for, eploiting Islam and God in an effort to see that their sick and twisted political ideologies become reality.

    Want to know the main difference between me and you Nadeem, While I spent a year in Israel studying Torah and praying for peace everyday. You rant and spout hate and call for a “liberation of the entire state of Palestine & all its people.” We all know what you are calling for, and it aint peace.

    Ezra Drissman
    Students for Israel
    Wayne State University
       —Ezra Drissman    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:00PM    #
  79. Neil, we have come to an agreement. :)

    Eyad, I have a huge axe to grind with you…
    “I must say that although religion can or cannot teach such intensified hate, T.J.’s attitudes are consistent with most Zionists, secular and religious. Zionism is an exclusionary movement that naturally leads to T.J. who sees indigenous people as inferior and deserve extermination. We saw the earliest examples in Deir Yassin, then some in Sabra and Shatilla, and the latest in Rafah. T.J. is not alone in thinking that all our people must die so that he can attain absolute purity.”

    It has been found in Haaretz polls that the majority of Israelis living in the West Bank support withdrawing from Gaza, by a narrow margin. The majority supported Oslo and Taba in 2000 and 2001 respectively, granting the Palestinians a Palestine in Most of the West Bank and Most of Gaza. Moreover, most don’t believe they are ethnically superior as many came from the ashes of the Holocaust. Your comment is just offensive.

    HOW DARE YOU generalize a group that subscribes to an ideology that says “We believe in a Jewish state” just as there are Islamic states, british states, and french states. And even worse, if you choose to classify and generalize, be correct, Please. So allow me to clarify because I have some experience in Israel.

    I have relatives in Israel who fled there after surviving Aushuwitz, a camp during the Holocaust. I have one Israeli cousin serving in the army currently in Gaza who wants to leave Gaza more than Fadi wants him to leave Gaza.

    I have been to Israel and talked to the people there. Eyad, you are totally mistaken. The overwhelming majority of Israeli’s living in Israel proper want peace. You can condemn AJ all you want, but please don’t generalize others; AJ doesn’t speak for Zionists or Israeli’s and neither do you, or myself.

    I have a feeling you hate it when someone calls the majority of Palestinians terrorists. Your comment effectively did the same thing to my people.
       —anonymous    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:02PM    #
  80. “I must say that although religion can or cannot teach such intensified hate, T.J.’s attitudes are consistent with most Zionists, secular and religious. Zionism is an exclusionary movement that naturally leads to T.J. who sees indigenous people as inferior and deserve extermination. We saw the earliest examples in Deir Yassin, then some in Sabra and Shatilla, and the latest in Rafah. T.J. is not alone in thinking that all our people must die so that he can attain absolute purity.”

    Wow, I make a solid, well founded argument for Israel’s right to exist and defend itself, and you claim that I want all Arabs and Muslims dead for my own “absolute purity?”

    And you wonder why people don’t take you seriously…

    “Your choice in supporting racist Zionism is abhorrent.”

    There is nothing racist about my support for Israel. It’s not based on race, it’s based on FAITH, genius. I don’t have a problem with Arabs, I have a problem with people trying to kill Jews and rob them of their rightful homeland.

    “Zionist view: ethnic purity through militarized colonization of Palestine by ethnically cleansing the land. Our view: Equality for all human beings with equal rights to indigenous peoples.”


    My view: Israel was re-created when America and Britain went in and pushed the Arabs back out of the land they took when the Jews left. This was prophecized in the Bible and as such was inevitable and justified. Israel is a relatively peaceful nation that is forced to defend itself from terrorist Islamic fanatics who want to kill all Jews.

    I will go ahead and tell my grandchildren that I supported God’s chosen people against a bunch of barbarians who wanted to rid the world of Jews.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:08PM    #
  81. “If someone robs me and I go back and get my things from him I am not dispossesing him of his freedom.”

    Unless the people doing the robbing are Arab and the people being robbed are those dirty Jews, eh?

    Sieg Heil, Neil!
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:10PM    #
  82. My bad, I stated “majority of Israelis living in the West Bank Support withdrawing from Gaza” when I ment “majority of Israelis living in Israel proper support withdrwaing from Gaza.” my apologies
       —anonymous    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:10PM    #
  83. come on, guys, nearly at 100!!!

    -an impressed ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:11PM    #
  84. “I want a world where people treat each other with compassion,”

    And so you support suicide bombers blowing up weddings and schoolbuses. Gotcha.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:11PM    #
  85. “The reason that I say this is because not many Rabbis would condone the action of hitting a peace activist in the face with an M-16.”

    You’re right, they wouldn’t. But they would probably condone hitting Fadi in the face with an M-16, given that Fadi is NOT a peace activist. He’s a terrorist who wants to see an end to Israel and the extermination of the Jewish race.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:16PM    #
  86. t.j.,
    you are the living end…i’m glad you are taking time off your job to entertain us all…

    -an amused ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:20PM    #
  87. T.J. That is ridiculous. They would favor a fair trial and if they found him guilty, they would punish him appropriate with the rules and law. I don’t know a Rabbi who would condone hitting someone in the face with an M-16. You’re crazy.
       —anonymous    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:20PM    #
  88. anon,
    kahanist rabbis would, but there are few of them…but for the most part you are right…rabbis are too dedicated to fairness, equality, and justice, as dictated by the law of the torah…

    a priest, an imam, and a rabbi walk into a weblog,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:23PM    #
  89. Ezra Drissman,

    I wasn’t singling out rabbis in order criticize the Judaic faith. I merely used the Rabbi as an example because Dorfamn is Jewish. If I used the example of a Muslim Cleric, such as the one you mentioned (which I don’t know the details about his particular story so I refrain from going into the particulars about the case), how would Dorfman’s simple mind relate & draw the correlation? He wouldn’t.

    Why are you on the defensive? I’m not anti-Judaism, nor am I anti-Semitic. I am a Palestinian; therefore, I am a Semite.

    Thank you for spelling out the difference between you & I. However, considering the fact that you’ve never even heard of me before, I find it extremely interesting that you know so much about me that you can state our differences in such a provocative manner. Yes I do call for the complete liberation of Palestine and its entire people. There is nothing wrong with that. In essence, what I am calling for is justice. Let us be honest, do you think that peace can ever be attained without first calling for justice as a prerequisite?

    I don’t mind Jews, and I don’t mind Judaism. Don’t assume that I have anything against the religion or any of its followers. I do not call for the liberation of Palestine because I am anti-Semitic. I call for the liberation of Palestine because I am anti-injustice. Judaism is a religion that calls for peace & justice. Does it not? So why don’t you join in our effort to see justice flourish in the Holy Land, and free it from occupation and oppression?
       —Nadeem Muaddi    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:25PM    #
  90. “Unless, however, they’re only exploiting Judaism & God in an effort to see that their sick & twisted political ideologies become reality.”

    Actually, I am hands-off when it comes to Israel. They have a rightful claim to that land, and the Muslims and their inherent hatred for anything non-Muslim (especially Jews) are the cause of the problem.

    But as far as “political ideologies,” I have none. Israel has the rightful claim to that land, but I would rather see the US butt out of it.

    Once the US butts out (and it will happen), the Muslims, Russians and others will band together to attack Israel. And God will protect them. It will be a rough time for Jews, but many will be led to salvation.

    Hopefully, many Muslims will too. And athiests as well. Hindus, Buddhists, Seikhs, Zoroastrians, Pagans, Wiccans, agnostics, etc. John Kerry-type “Catholics” as well.

    When the infidels stage an all-out attack on Israel, that’s the beginning of the end. And the end is a beautiful thing, an establishment of 1000 years of peace on Earth leading to eternal peace in Heaven.

    THAT is what I am looking forward to. Hopefully you will see the light and join me. Hopefully I will be deemed worthy.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:25PM    #
  91. dude, i LOVE it when t.j. gets apocalypic…

    its evolution, baby,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:28PM    #
  92. I will not personalize this and go into a whole history, I have been in physical confrontations with nazis been attacked by them and had my home painted with swastikas in Ohio for my stand against them, My arguments have nothing to with nazism and TJ you are beyond the pail and I imagine even the most committed zionist would find your arguments extremist and abhorrant. Your Might makes Right sounds Like Blood and Honor. The Nazis were more powerful than the Jews so oh well, its a disgusting argument, and you are shameful. I will no longer respond to you.

    As for Indian land, first there was no pan-Indian identity until confronted with colonialism. I would fully support opening negotiations with all First Nations, giving them the right as nations, honor treaty obligations, give land and pay compensation. I would also proudly live under the Ojibwa flag, much more proudly than the American flag. I think people should be able to live wherever they want, they just can’t take by force of arms and be exclusively for one group or another, be able to marry who they want and be able to be buried where they want. I oppose religious states or states based on exclusive ethnic qualifications. Thats why I am for a free Palestine!
       —Neil    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:29PM    #
  93. “It will be a rough time for Jews, but many will be led to salvation.” -t.j.

    is that the part when i have to give up my jewish identity and be a christian???

    “Jews for Jesus? Isn’t that like Mets for Yankees?” -Livshiz’s roomate…

    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:30PM    #
  94. “Yes I do call for the complete liberation of Palestine”

    There is no Palestine. But the people who call themselves “Palestinians” ARE FREE.

    The Jews came back and took what was rightfully theirs. The squatters were thrown off and are now FREE to either go back to where they came from before the Jews were pushed out the first time, or they can make new homes somewhere else.

    The only “freedom” they are deprived of is the freedom to blow up innocent Jews. And if you think giving up that sole freedom is a “sacrifice,” then you are just like your hero Fadi.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:30PM    #
  95. Nadeem,

    In 1947, the United Nations approved the creation of 2 states: Palestine and Israel. If there is no Israel, then that would contradict the United Nations and would thus be an injustice to Jews. Don’t prop yourself up on such high ground; what you call is also an injustice…which leads me back to my 2 state solution support.
       —anonymous    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:31PM    #
  96. Ah, T.J. is a Christian fundamentalist-type “Zionist millenarian” (“1000 years”, Muslim/Russian attack on Israel re “Gog and Magog”, etc.).

    I’m not saying he’s wrong, I’m just saying that’s what he is. Well, that is one frequent interpretation of the New Testament book of Revelation/Apocalypse, after all.

    Does anyone read Jack Chick comics? I have a habit of doing that, actually. (Online at Interesting stuff.
       —David Boyle    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:33PM    #
  97. dude,
    jack chick is FUCKED UP…he is one that is extremely anti-semitic…a friend of mine in high school was assailed by a follower of his because he was jewish…scary shit…

    -ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:36PM    #
  98. T.J., I would like for you to prove to me that Fadi Kiblawi wants “the extermination of the Jewish race”. And by “proving” , I mean that I would like for you to give me a direct quote from Kiblawi that states that he wants the entire “Jewish race” to face “extermination”. If you could provide me with this quote, then I will respect you as an intellectual that bases his/her arguments on solid facts, though his/her opinion may greatly differ from mine. However, if you can’t…then let’s just face the facts: You have no legitimate argument.

    Oh, and remember, the quote needs to come from a credible publication. Otherwise, you would probably just make it up like the rest of your Zionist propoganda.
       —Nadeem    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:37PM    #
  99. “The Nazis were more powerful than the Jews so oh well, its a disgusting argument, and you are shameful.”

    What an ignorant argument.

    The Nazis exterminating Jews was wrong. They weren’t conquering a land, it was THEIR LAND. They were plucking people off that land and killing them because of their race and religion. Nobody, besides a Muslim or Slobodan Milosevic, would condone that.

    If you wanted to make a more reasonable, accurate analogy with regards to the Nazis, look to Poland.

    What the Nazis did to the Jews was wrong. Conquering Poland was either good or bad (depending on which side you are on), but their claim to the Polish land after conquering it was justified. And when the Russians pushed them out, that was justified too.

    “As for Indian land, first there was no pan-Indian identity until confronted with colonialism. I would fully support opening negotiations with all First Nations, giving them the right as nations, honor treaty obligations, give land and pay compensation.”

    I see. A double standard. Israel has to be liberated, the Jews have to leave because they are “occupying” the land.

    However, you feel that you have the right to “occupy” Indian lands. You said that you will live proudly under the Ojibwa flag…well, you may live under their flag, but you are still OCCUPYING THEIR LAND.

    Hypocrite, either move away from the US and stop occupying Indian land, or stop trying to make others do what you refuse to do yourself.

    Or, just keep being an ignorant, small minded hypocrite. Whatever works for you.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:37PM    #
  100. YES!!! that’s it!!! we hit 100!!! i’d like to thank each and everyone of you for making this a great thread and an AU first…

    i know israel/palestine debates bring every fanatic out of the internet’s woodwork…

    one state, for all,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:40PM    #
  101. “is that the part when i have to give up my jewish identity and be a christian???”

    No. Not at all. You don’t have to do anything.

    Think about it…assuming you are a Jew who believes that the Messiah will come one day…when He comes, are you going to have to give up your “jewish identity” and be a Yahwehan?

    No. You can either worship Yahweh or deny Him. That’s up to you. Nobody is making you do anything. And the whole purpose of Judaism is to be with Yahweh when He comes.

    Well, the difference between Jews and Christians is that you don’t think the Messiah has already been here, while I know He already has. You think that His next visit will be His first, I know He’s already been here and He’s coming back.
    You call Him Yahweh, I call Him Jesus and know that He is also God.

    When He comes back (or finally comes as you will see it), you will either worship Him (whether you call him Christ or Yahweh or whatever) or not.

    That’s up to you, but honestly…I understand pride and all of that, but when the Messiah comes and you find out He’s Jesus, are you going to deny eternity in Heaven just because you don’t want to be called a “Christian?” (as if being a Chistian is a bad thing…)
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:44PM    #
  102. heaven or hell???

    who would i rather hang with??? pat robertson hating on jews and minorities with those whiney harps in the background???

    or i could jam with joe strummer, darby crash, and joey ramone while satan bustsout some heat and guitars…

    little boy, you’re going to hell,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:47PM    #
  103. actually, according to mel gibson, t.j., you are going to hell, too…

    the passion of the t.j.,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:49PM    #
  104. Wow… after hearing T.J. rant about God in an apocalyptic manner, I think it’s best if we all leave him alone. Hopefully he’ll seclude himself in some basement, form a cult with a bunch of other insane Judgment Day seekers, drink poison together, and rid us all of his insanity.

    For the anonymous person who addressed to me the following:

    “In 1947, the United Nations approved the creation of 2 states: Palestine and Israel. If there is no Israel, then that would contradict the United Nations and would thus be an injustice to Jews. Don’t prop yourself up on such high ground; what you call is also an injustice…which leads me back to my 2 state solution support.”

    Just because the United Nations calls for something, does not make it just. The UN imposed sanctions on Iraq for ten years where 10,000 children died per month as a result. That was not just. I’m not saying I support Saddam or his regime, but the UN tactic imposed on the nation in order to weaken his government was neither moral, nor just. But if we are arguing that the United Nations is just in its resolutions, than why don’t most “Israelis” want the millions of Palestinian refugees living in Diaspora all over the globe to return to their homes? Wouldn’t that be just? Hasn’t the UN supported the right of return for Palestinian Refugees?

    I am not unjust. I am merely stating that no America, Britain, Jewish community, or United Nations has the right to take away Palestinian land and divide it into two unequal shares, giving the lesser share to the Palestinians.
       —Nadeem    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:49PM    #
  105. Nadeem – actually they haven’t. Teh contorling resolution is UNGA 194, which in paragraph 7 (i think, but it may be 11) calls for Israel to do one of FOUR things. one of them is the right of return, another is simply compensation. In either case, the use of the word or implies that none of the proposed sollutions have primacy, just that one should be adopted. and that decision is Israel’s under customary int’l law. Dave
       —David Livshiz    Jun. 21 '04 - 06:59PM    #
  106. Pat Robertson doesn’t hate minorities or jews. He’s a staunch supporter of Israel and I think he is like most Christians in his sincere hope that they find their way.

    That said, nobody but Pat Robertson and God himself knows what lurks in Robertson’s heart. There are many who claim to be Christian who don’t believe, and there are many who say they don’t and do. Pat himself might not even know for sure, I know it’s something that a lot of Christians struggle with.

    A big part of it is the unworthiness in the face of righteousness. We don’t feel worthy of Heaven given that God is perfect and we are so sinful. We lose sight of the fact that it is but by the Grace of God that we are saved.

    If this all comes to pass in our lifetime, I doubt seriously that you will be able to look into the face of God and deny Him at the cost of your eternal soul.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:00PM    #
  107. “actually, according to mel gibson, t.j., you are going to hell, too…”

    How so?
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:01PM    #
  108. “Wow… after hearing T.J. rant about God in an apocalyptic manner, I think it’s best if we all leave him alone. Hopefully he’ll seclude himself in some basement, form a cult with a bunch of other insane Judgment Day seekers, drink poison together, and rid us all of his insanity.”

    Wow, you know nothing about Christianity.

    And 33% of the world are in my “insane cult.”

    Insane…I love it. A loving God who asks that men just repent for their sins and ask Him to come into their hearts and in return gives them eternal salvation… A God that teaches His followers not to hate ANYONE, even those who desire to kill him, rather that they should love everyone… A God that promises eternal life in His Kingdom, a life of unimagineable bliss…

    And you call that “insane.”

    I will pray for you.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:05PM    #
  109. I said pray for Fadi, now T.J. says pray.

    Eight more, we’ll have a minyan.
       —David Boyle    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:08PM    #
  110. Hello David,

    Does 194 suggest that “Israel” should solve the Palestinian refugee problem by forcing them to continue living like rats in make-shift camps because they just want to go home but aren’t allowed? Lets face it… they were kicked out of their homes & they just want to go home. Why can’t they go home?

    One more thing, and it is not directly addressed to you David: I thought that the whole point of these postings was to discuss what happened to my good friend, Fadi. Somehow, all of us – me included – got thrown off track. Let us either return to that subject, or stop the postings under this thread.

    It is impossible for the Palestinian / “Israeli” issue to be discussed in full on this site. Let’s get back to the subject.
       —Nadeem Muaddi    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:09PM    #
  111. hey boyle,
    i’m in!!!

    he (gibson) believes all proddys are going to the fire can…even his wife, who mothered all 147 of his children…

    -ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:12PM    #
  112. Wow T.J. , I know nothing about Christianity? That’s amusing…

    “Israel” oppresses Palestinians.
    The Christian God does not support oppression.
    Therefore, Christianity, which is structured around the worship of God, and Jesus’ teachings, does not support violent “Israeli” action against any people, including the Palestinian people.

    Or are we not people?

    If you support what “Israel” is doing to the Palestinians, then you aren’t supporting something that the Christian God would condone. And since the Christian God is the same God as the Muslim God & the Jewish God, then you wouldn’t be supporting what their God’s would condone either.

    I’m done talking to you T.J. Your battle isn’t with me. Your battle is with God. And I can’t help you there.
       —Nadeem Muaddi    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:17PM    #
  113. “He was born in the virgin Mary’s womb.
    Then he busted a move staight out the tomb.”
    -David ‘B-Boy’ Boyle

    when does the album come out???

    skank to the beat,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:18PM    #
  114. Nadeem –
    Agree on Fadi; but as you ask, let me explain. 194 does not suggest that Israel solve it by forcing them to livei n camps. But, it also doesn’t say that in the event of Arab states refusing to assimilate tehm, Isrela has to.

    194 comes in a particular leagel tradition, after WWII, where there were lots of refugees. Customary Int’l Law at the time, and still today – absnet one, extraordinary example – is that if a group of people is kicked out of their home during a war; they are not entitled to a legal right of return; though, they are entiteld to a legal compensation.

    What happened with the palestinains is particularly sad. B/c teh arab states, not wanting to assimilate them (jordan is an exception) forced the UNGA (via threat of walk out) to place the Palestinians outside the scope of the UN refugee agency, therby costing the refugees MOST of theri legal rights. This was doen, b/c if Palestinian refugees were under the mandate of the UNHCR then Lebanon, Syria, Kuwait, Egypt, etc would be obliged to grant citizenship (while Isreal would be obliged to pay market rate compensation). In any case, what happened is that the Arab states refused to assimilate them. That doens’t change the legal obligations israel faces.

    Israel, at CD Taba and elsewehre, agreed to pay compensation. That fulfills their legal obligations under 194. Now – in terms of the missery of conditions – i think that its the responcibility of arab states, as hostos of initial order, to fulfill their legal obligation and grant Palestinian in the camps citizenships.

    If you are interested in more, there is an excellent article comming out from NYU Law Review in March of next year, i highly recomend it.

       —David Livshiz    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:22PM    #
  115. What’s scary is that Mr. Mel belongs to an ultra-traditionalist sect that thinks the Pope is too LIBERAL, and which I think is associated with French archbishop Marcel Lebfevre who was excommunicated for doing banned ultra-conservative practices.
    So ol’ Melvin might not be saved, either, by orthodox Catholic standards!! Eeeee.

    Also: Fadi on one side of $10 bill, Brad on the other. Or Ari and T.J. for that matter. If we can’t get Ray Charles on the bill, that is.
       —David Boyle    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:22PM    #
  116. Be a hero—- do a mitzvah.
       —Dorfman    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:23PM    #
  117. Ari,

    Where did he say that? I would be interested to see what his argument was.

    I had issues with Catholicism most of my life (my grandfather was a Baptist deacon who moved from Alabama because a bunch of Catholics moved into his town…he said you “can’t raise kids around Catholics” and then moved his family to Toledo, OH which was then almost completely Catholic (I think) before moving again to a then-secluded farm in Flint, MI) but because of my Catholic friends and my thirst for knowledge on religious issues, my anger toward Catholicism has completely dissipated.

    But I really want to know Gibson’s justification. I know his Dad was a little out there, but Gibson’s Passion was a very courageous effort and probably did more to convert people to Christianity than anything in the past couple centuries.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:23PM    #
  118. Unless the subject is brought back to what happened to Fadi Kiblawi, then I will no longer post anything on this thread.

    Fadi is free, that’s all that matters right now. Soon he’ll be back to launching his intellectual intifada against the Racist Zionist “Israeli Government”.

    If I didn’t know him better, then I would leave you all by saying that I can’t wait to follow his law career and see where it takes him. But I do know him. And because of this, I know that it will lead him to a Free Tarshiha & a Free Palestine!

       —Nadeem Muaddi    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:26PM    #
  119. t.j.,
       —Lynn    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:32PM    #
  120. ”“Israel” oppresses Palestinians.
    The Christian God does not support oppression.
    Therefore, Christianity, which is structured around the worship of God, and Jesus’ teachings, does not support violent “Israeli” action against any people, including the Palestinian people.”

    Israel doesn’t oppress anyone.
    The Christian God does not support what the Muslims are doing to His chosen people. Says so throughout the Old and New Testiments (doesn’t speak specifically about the Muslims, obviously)

    As for Israel’s violent reaction to the “Palestinians’” terror, well, the Jews are justified by their text, as the “turn the other cheek” didn’t come until Jesus.

    As for Christians, as you will see, I am opposed to the US being involved at all. We should turn the other cheek, especially considering that we know what happens when you band together and attack Israel.

    I am simply saying that the Jews are justified in being there, Biblically speaking. They are justified in reacting to the “Palestinians’” terrorist tactics by the Torah and by basic common sense.

    ” And since the Christian God is the same God as the Muslim God & the Jewish God, then you wouldn’t be supporting what their God’s would condone either.”

    The Jewish and Christian God are the same. The Muslim God is not the same. Islam claims to base itself on the same texts and same lineage, but Allah and God/Yahweh are not the same. Read the texts and you will see.

    My God teaches us to love and honor. Your Allah teaches you to hate, kill and fear.

    I have no battle with God. I am fighting on the right side. And in the end, we win.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:32PM    #
  121. David Livshiz,

    You’re interesting to talk to… Perhaps one of the very few people on this thread who can conduct an intellectually stimulating debate.

    Though we may not agree on everything, it was a pleasure. Hopefully we can resume this debate one day in the future.

    Free Palestine!
       —Nadeem Muaddi    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:32PM    #
  122. Nadeem – as i said, i share your thougths re Fadi (thouhght I doubt you or he will see a free palestine, at least as you describe it, in your lifetime). But, if you do call someone out -then i’d appreceate a responce. However, as I do understand yoru relauctance to take more attention off Kiblawi, just emial me directly. Dave
       —David LIvshiz    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:34PM    #
  123. Wow. Just read the Gibson stuff…

    Before I get into that, can I just say that the headline just shows all that’s wrong with America today?

    “Mel Gibson says his wife
    could be going to hell…
    Studdard fans fuming at Rivers’ diet tips”

    Somehow Gibson’s wife going to hell and an American Karaoke winner being mad because someone said he’s fat are considered equal. Hilarious.

    As for Mel…
    I understand his argument, and it comes from a disagreement on the meaning of Church. The “church” is the group of people who believe in Christ. When Christ mentioned His Church, there was no Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox, etc. There were believers and non-believers.

    The meaning I and all Protestants take from that scripture is that there is no salvation outside the church of Christ, meaning that only believers go to Heaven.

    His sect takes that scripture literally and believe that only people who are actual members of the Catholic Church (widely referred to as “The Church” throughout Christianity) will go to Heaven.

    This kind of thing has happened numerous times in Christian history. Scisms have occurred for all sorts of reasons, from the significant (Protestant Reformation) to the relatively mundane.

    That’s why you can’t really make the statement “oh, you Christians all believe such and so.” There is no Christian consensus other than that the New Testament trumps the Old Testament.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:43PM    #
  124. Livshiz-

    The Torah is an eternal document; whereas most of halacha as we know it today, including laws of divorce, are simply put man made barriers to protect the Torah. You’re therefore wrong that the Torah discriminates against women….and besides, it is now halachically forbidden for a women not to have a say in a divorce, as practiced with modern orthodoxy!
       —Brad    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:44PM    #
  125. My last comment on Fadi in this thread:

    One time, as I sat in MSA chambers, Fadi walked in wearing a “Free Palestine!” t-shirt.

    I said to him “Free Palestine??!!?? And here I’ve been paying for it all these years…”

    He wasn’t amused. To paraphrase Mr. Miyagi, never trust a fanatical leader who lacks a sense of humor.
       —T.J.    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:46PM    #
  126. Brad – you pull a bait and switch. I did not say anything about having a say in divorce ( i assume you ment not forbidden). I said “FILE” – and that under halcha she can’t (thougth, you’re right – I am not sure what the law is under modern orthodox custom). And thats true, she can have a say, but she can’t file, she has to go to a rabbi, who if he agrees with her, can force the husband to file. But it is still different.

    As for the torah. I’ll buy your argument, its not discriminatory, but has been interprteted in a discriminatory fashion (i.e. divorce law, reading from beemah etc).
       —David LIvshiz    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:52PM    #
  127. wow…now the au is forum for religous debate…

    in dog we trust,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 21 '04 - 07:59PM    #
  128. Not that I believe all the following, but it’s too good not to post:
    —- ,
    “ Jewish Buffalo on the Web”:

    The “Passion” Movie

    Commentary by Dr. Gerhard Falk

    Mel Gibson – A Hater for Our Time

    ...It may be little consolation to Jews that Gibson belongs to a religion which consists of those excommunicated by the Catholic Church. It is however true that in 1988 Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre of Belgium and all of his followers were excommunicated by the pope for refusing to accept the teachings of Vatican II and for other efforts to negate the teachings of the pope.

    The Lefebvre church is particularly opposed to the teaching on religious liberty and the statement of the R.C. church that neither the Jews of Jesus’ day nor the Jews of today are responsible for the death of Jesus. Therefore, Gibson now made a movie deliberately seeking to incite hatred and persecution, bloodshed and cruelty….

    ...Be sure never to attend a Gibson movie again. His name joins all the endless persecutors of our people who, since the days of the Pharaoh, have tried to wipe us out of this world. They failed then. Gibson will fail now. Remember the last words we sing at the end of every Shabbat service in the synagogue of your choice. “God is with me, I shall not fear.” Be not afraid. Speak up. Denounce the monster Gibson and above all, come to “shul” this Shabbat and meet your Jewish friends.

    Shalom u’vracha.

    I love the World Wide Web.
       —David Boyle    Jun. 21 '04 - 08:03PM    #
  129. Dave-

    Didn’t mean to pull a bait and switch there. What I meant about modern practices is that the majority of Jewish weddings have both the man and woman sign a contract designating a Jewish court to be the arbiter of divorce cases….

    In essence, anything can be argued to be discriminatory…for the matter, halachically, women have complete control of sexual relationships….If she wants sex and a man denies her- that’s grounds for a Jewish divorce (if anyone were to pursue it that far, of course….)
       —Brad    Jun. 21 '04 - 08:05PM    #
  130. Hey everyone!

    I have no idea how this thread grew so much between last night and today, but it looks like there has been a lot of discussion, regardless of view. Nadeem and David’s discussions have been extremely stimulating specifically.

    That being said, I think it is necesarry to clarify some of the things being said.

    First of all, it is not solely Israel’s fault that the Palestinians are in the horrible economic condition they are in. Their own leadership has never helped them, whether the “elected” ones, or dictators. While they continue to get millions of dollars in aid from Europe and America, little of it is used to provide plumbing or electricity for the Palestinian people, or to build hospitals or schools. Instead, the money is used for Arafat’s personal use, and sent to his wife in Paris. More than that, money from both Europe and America have been proven to be routed through the PA to terror organizations. Until the terrorist bombings within Israel became too much to handle, Israel actually provided more work and financial support to the Palestinian people than their own leadership, which is the first problem.

    Second, the security fence is necessary for Israel’s security. Since the fence was built, it has been proven to cut down on the amount of suicide bombers making it through to Israel. If having the fence saves innocent Israeli lives, whether they are Arab, Jewish, or Christain, from being blown up in resturaunts, shopping malls, or at universities, the reason for the fence is supported. Now, it is extremely unfortunate that Palestinians are inconvenienced with the presence of the fence. But the fence can be taken down in a day if the terrorism stops. The Palestinian leadership and people should make an effort to stop the terrorist activity within their organization, and maybe in that, there would be a better solution to taking down the fence than protests with illegal activity.

    All day, there have been extremely explosive comments all over this message board of both sides attacking each other. If both sides could work together towards peace, then hopefully there could be a Palestinian state and Israeli state side by side. Until then, the fence needs to be there to continue to prevent more terrorism within Israel’s borders.
       —Alana    Jun. 21 '04 - 08:45PM    #
  131. Last word for now: when is T.J. going to try openly to convert Brad etc. to “Yeshua haMashiach” (“Jesus the Messiah” in Hebrew)?

    Teej has thrown down (his beliefs), but when is he going to EVANGELIZE ??? !!! *# *# *#

    That would almost be as funny as p. 3 of the Daily today, “Police: campus drug den targeted students”, paragraphs five and six:
    “The house also serves as a clearinghouse for stolen property including…fresh meat, which are all bartered for drugs, police say.
    “The two bosses of the Detroit drug crew hang out with students at parties near campus trying to develop customers, and one of them was supplying crack to a girl in a sorority, said Ann Arbor Police Sgt. Lyle Sartori.”

    (I’m not comparing sororities to meat, I just thought the meat was funny.)
       —David Boyle    Jun. 21 '04 - 08:47PM    #
  132. David Boyle, you are one strange bird.
       —Brad    Jun. 21 '04 - 09:07PM    #
  133. Brad –

    No, i absolutely agree. But even under those agreements, which i understand to be WHOLY boiler plate -the man has to file.

    However, the counterpoint is also true (re: sex). In either case, i thiknk that its is safe tos ay that Judaims, as practiced until recently discriminated agianst women; and the smae can be said for EVERY otehr societ/religion. Dave
       —David Livshiz    Jun. 21 '04 - 09:26PM    #
  134. Dave-

    I still have to disagree with you here. Interpretation, as you well know, is subject to the interpreter…. Something that may look like a caste system to you may very well be something you can’t or don’t understand.

    This is the same logic of Arab women who wear the hijab specifically to “empower” themselves…it may look to you that these women, as a result of a religious decree, are bound to something that shields their face…when really it is THEY who are excersizing their freedom….Similarly, the Jewish concept of family works in the same way…..

    In this case, looking ONLY at the Jewish woman’s ability to decide upon divorce is like looking at the horse and not the cart it pushes…(probably not the best analogy….=> )
       —Brad    Jun. 21 '04 - 09:56PM    #
  135. that should be the cart it “pulls”
       —Brad    Jun. 21 '04 - 10:25PM    #
  136. It strikes me as odd that, in the Reuters video, Fadi is seen marching at the very front of the pack (of irate Allahu-Aqbar chanters) with a small video camera.

    In order to truly have merited a reference to MLK, Jr. and other non-violence activists, Fadi could have easily turned around, screamed “STOP!” with an outstretched hand, and explained that this group’s misguided venture would not end well.

    Unfortunately, it was clear that Fadi was there to join-perhaps even to instigate-a confrontation to be publicized by various media.

    He has now been banned from the West Bank as a result of his poor choice of action/restraint. No matter how many editorials he publishes about his night spent in prison, he must now live with the shame that, as a direct result of his poor choices, he has limited his ability to champion an enhanced Palestinian living condition.

    Then again, I’m not convinced that this was really a priority of his.
       —bystand    Jun. 21 '04 - 10:58PM    #
  137. Is this thing on?
       —joe    Jun. 21 '04 - 11:24PM    #
  138. Need I remind everyone of Fadi’s middle name? Fadi N. Kiblawi. The “N” stands for Nazih.

    Just my 2¢.
       —Justin Wilson    Jun. 22 '04 - 12:39AM    #
  139. Oh man. I don’t look for a couple of hours and comments jump from 30 to 130 and the debate goes from Fadi to Israel’s existence to the Apocalpyse.

    Don’t any of you people have jobs? Haha!

    I’m not going to add anymore to this debate but just say this:

    For those who believe Israel is a racist, oppressive, apartheid state that needs to be “unoccupied” and to those who believe there is no such thing as a Palestinian people and such, you’re both fucking nuts.

    Look, filling these boards with empty rhetoric and propaganda doesn’t get anyone anywhere. Israel isn’t going to disappear and neither are the Palestinians. And I doubt the situation is going to be solved through these message boards.

    The message boards are here for honest, intelligent debate and all I have seen is a lack thereof.

    Oh, and Ari, two things:

    A) You’re fucking hilarious! (I mean that in a good way)

    B) I still don’t agree with the one-state idea.
       —Jared Goldberg    Jun. 22 '04 - 12:40AM    #
  140. “Teej has thrown down (his beliefs), but when is he going to EVANGELIZE ???”

    Why would I? There are others who do it better than I could, and nobody HERE is going to listen to me. They are too busy hating me to listen. That’s fine. All I can do is preach the truth and pray that God talks to them.

    Beyond that, all I can do is try to influence the people around me and hope for the best.
       —T.J.    Jun. 22 '04 - 02:24AM    #
  141. Justin-
    Just to let you know, “Nazih” means pure or chaste in Arabic. It has nothing to do with Hitler and his psychos.
       —anonymous    Jun. 22 '04 - 02:38AM    #
  142. Survey: Most Israeli Jews Want Arabs Out

    Tue Jun 22, 6:03 AM ET

    JERUSALEM – A majority of Israeli Jews think Israeli Arabs are a threat to security and believe they should be encouraged to leave the country, according to a new survey.

    The author of the wide-ranging survey said Tuesday that the numbers were the result of nearly four years of Israeli-Palestinian violence.
    Israeli Arabs constitute about 20 percent of Israel’s population of 6.8 million. They enjoy full civil and political rights — unlike their Palestinian counterparts in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip (news – web sites) — but suffer from economic and social discrimination.
    Professor Gavriel Ben Dor of the University of Haifa said the survey of 1,016 Israelis found that 64 percent of Jewish respondents believe the government should encourage Israeli Arabs to leave the country, and 55 percent think they constitute a threat to Israeli security.
    He said the two responses were connected. “If you believe that someone is a threat to your country, you’re inclined to want him leave,” he said.

    The survey also found that 46 percent of Israeli Jews believe that Israeli Arabs should lose their right to vote and not be allowed to sit in parliament, Ben Dor said.

    More than 80 percent of Arab Israeli voters take part in national elections, and Arab Israelis have 10 representatives in the 120-member parliament.
    Ben Dor said the results of the survey were nearly identical to those of three previous polls he conducted in 2001, 2002 and 2003.
    He attributed the strong anti-Arab sentiments many of the Jewish respondents expressed to almost four years of Israeli-Palestinian violence, in which 964 Israelis and nearly 3,000 Palestinians have died.

    “There is no doubt that the outbreak of the violence was a turning point,” he said. “Many Israeli Jews now see Arabs as the enemy, someone you should fear, someone who doesn’t belong.”

    Mohammed Barakeh, an Israeli Arab member of parliament, said the results of the survey were “depressing and worrying.”
    “There is no legitimacy for an entire group to feel threatened in the country of its birth,” he told Israel Army Radio.
    The survey was conducted during the first three weeks of June, Ben Dor said. It has a margin of error of four percentage points.
       —neil    Jun. 22 '04 - 10:50AM    #
  143. Brad – the prayer that orthodox men say in the morning: “Thank God I’m not a woman,” how did that originate? I’m pretty sure it’s not in the Torah…
       —Ellen    Jun. 22 '04 - 12:11PM    #
  144. it so happens to be this idiot supports terror and was arrested because he has links to terror style movements BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. May he stay there and then be deported back to lebanon, saudi araia, whoever will take him.keep him out of the U.S., these groups are utterly unamerican and anti western in general.
       —david weiman    Jun. 22 '04 - 12:18PM    #
  145. how is this news? a dumbnut getting arrested? who cares…......i hope he never makes it back into the u.s. and am surprised this even made it to any form of publication
       —david weiman    Jun. 22 '04 - 12:22PM    #
  146. A safe & free Fadi Kiblawi sent this today:

    “please be aware that no zionist act of oppression has succeeded in intimidating the native population for over 5 decades now (with the exception of that small cabal that currently comprises the so-called national leadership)... such acts will only strengthen our resolve. this must be a very frightening realization and concern for the occupiers, imagine that! their 56 year project is intractable, they are increasingly becoming aware of this, particularly as they have continuously failed in devising any mechanism to reconcile that which is impossible to reconcile…it is the historic resilience and refusal to submit to the shackles of zionist colonization, even as it has become more pronounced and sadistic, that will prevail. however i strongly believe that to hasten this day of freedom and equality all who reject racism, colonialism, and apartheid in any form must do all that is within their capacity from now until then (including the rejection of the PA as any sort of representation of the national movement).



    “Our hands are steady and enduring
    The hands of the oppressors – However hard -Tremble!”

    And with that, I’d like to bring this thread of posts to an end. And though some of you may continue to contribute your worthless two cents to this discussion, I walk away laughing at your inability to deal with the reality that occupation & oppression are impossible to maintain, and that all of Palestine will be free!
       —Nadeem Muaddi    Jun. 22 '04 - 12:46PM    #
  147. The new ‘Berlin’ Wall currently being erected by Israel across the West Bank needs to be STOPPED. Such construction, now commonly known as Separation Wall or Apartheid Wall has become Israel’s new stranglehold of Palestine and the latest assault by the Occupation: land confiscation, water confiscation, destruction of lives and livelihoods of Palestinians, all in a new drive to expand truly colonialist measures under the usual pretenses in order to achieve long-standing goals in a frightening fashion similar of 1948’s events.

    oh, wait.. werent the JEWS AGAINST the berlin wall??? remind me again WHY…. and remind me why the “Seperation Wall” is a good idea..
       —Stop the Wall    Jun. 22 '04 - 12:57PM    #
  148. a few interesting quotes i wanted 2 share..

    “Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.” ~ Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

    “Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can’t help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East.” ~ Jesuit priest John Sheehan, S.J.

    “Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”
    ~ Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001.

    “I wish the Palestinians had chosen the way of nonviolence in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Palestinian resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.” ~Gandhi
       —Free Palestine!!    Jun. 22 '04 - 01:02PM    #
  149. Hey “Free Palestine” poster:

    Shoot. You got us. Wow. We thought we could just rule the world without anyone knowing. Damn. Well, now you know.

    Yup, we Jews run the world. That Jewish controlled media? Yeah, my cousin Adam is the head of that. Eh, we might as well let the truth out. My uncle Martin runs the Communist conspiracy while a friend of my father’s runs the neo-con conspiracy. George W. Bush? Ha! He’s just a puppet.

    I run the country. I’m on top of it all. This Jewish conspiracy elected me to run the United States. Yup, us Jews are in charge of it all. All those stories of genocide and apartheid that the Jewish people lived under for two thousand years? Made up. Yeah you got us.

    Oh, and by the way, you’re A COMPLETE FUCKING MORON.

    Ok, I’m gonna just say it, that this guy is a certified anti-semite. And I’m done posting on this. Honestly if you believe any of this crap about how Jews run the world, congratulations, you’re a Nazi.
       —Jared Goldberg    Jun. 22 '04 - 03:06PM    #
  150. I don’t want to get too involved in the whole philosophical debate, but as for the “For not making me a woman” prayer, that’s what men say, while women say “For making me according to his will.” Religion (or any culture for that matter—see America pre-suffrage) of any kind was slow to accept women. There’s no sense getting into a pissing contest over who is more accepting.
       —Jon    Jun. 22 '04 - 03:42PM    #
  151. wow, most of you people are STARK RAVING MAD.
       —neal    Jun. 22 '04 - 03:55PM    #
  152. let me just say that hearing racist comments from both the zionists and the palestinian nationalists is what saddens me the most…both sides have legitmate claims (but the shoe is on israel’s foot to get rid of the brutal, brutal occupation)...

    no one is innocent…arabs are killing jews…jews are killing arabs…innocent bodies are piling up…that is what i am concerned with, not a steadfast religous devotion or a dogmatic poltiical ideology…

    that’s my last post on this subject, have fun…

    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 22 '04 - 03:59PM    #
  153. Jared,

    I believe that the Jews run a good majority of the United States (and by extension, the world). Better that than the Muslims.

    Am I a Nazi?

       —T.J.    Jun. 22 '04 - 04:30PM    #
  154. one more comment:

    “Am I a Nazi?”

    well, certainly your demeaning comments about muslims and arabs certainly makes you a racist, however, i am unclear if you fundamentalist christianity and your vehement support for ANY israeli policy makes you an advocate of national socialism (nazism, in laymen’s terms)

    however, if you DO buy into the conspiracy theory that we jews are the puppet masters of the united states and world politics, you are buying into an age old myth that anti-semites on the right and left, like the nazis, father coughlin, the tsar, stalin, osama bin laden, jerry falwell, david duke, pat buchanon, bobby fisher have all used as an excuse for their racist policies that they have either metted out or publically supported…

    i honestly hope t.j., that you do not believe the terrible anti-semtic libel that has been petuated over the centuries…but if you do, should i really surprised??? if not you, t.j., there are still millions that believe this terrible lie as to perpetuate the war against our people…

    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 22 '04 - 04:46PM    #
  155. It’s always frightening to see people advocating use of / justification by religion for national policy. I wish more “modern nationalists” were more like the distinctly non-Christian founders of the United States.
       —Eric Goldberg    Jun. 22 '04 - 05:30PM    #
  156. Just a few comments…

    Mr. Free Palestine~
    Where did you get these quotes from? I am sure that even if they do exist, which they probably don’t, they were taken out of context or translated wrong…

    MLK was a Zionist. He believed in the establishment and existence of Israel, and some of his biggest supporters and co-horts in the civil rights battles of the 1960’s in the U.S. were Jewish… how about this MLK quote:
    “Peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity.” -March 25, 1968.

    Ghandi died in Jan. 1948, in the middle of the War of Independence, and before Israel was even a soveriegn nation. Not only that, Palestinians didn’t actually mean only Arabs until much later, usually in the 1960’s.

    For the rest, don’t say stupid things. Get dates, locations, and specifics on these quotes, and then go from there.

    Second, T.J. and Free Palestine guy, just so you know, the Jews do not control the United States, and the fact that you think so is riduculous. The reasons why this is ridiculous have already been said by Jared and Ari, but think about this… Jews make up 2% of the United States, and about .03% of the world. How can a people so small “control” the United States? That is horrible.

    I also want to say that what Fadi’s log said shows exactly how “peaceful” and wonderful this guy is… it is all classic anti-semitic and propogandist rhetoric. by rejecting the PA as the national mvoement, who represents them? oh, let me guess… hamas, islamic jihad, hizbollah, just stop me if im getting warm…
       —Alana    Jun. 22 '04 - 05:52PM    #
  157. 1 word…...INJUSTICE
       —HATU    Jun. 22 '04 - 06:43PM    #
  158. First of all, Ari, I am not a racist. I have made no racist comments. Perhaps you construed my comments as racist, but I challenge you to come up with something I said that was racist.

    If I am racist, then you are a Klan member, let’s leave it at that.

    Second, I said that I believe that a large portion of the world is controlled by Jews. Did I say anything about a puppet government or even that the Jews controlling things is negative? Of course not.

    You need to start reading what I post and stop making me out to be what you want me to be.
       —T.J.    Jun. 22 '04 - 06:52PM    #
  159. this is really starting 2 get long will it be b4 some 1 gets rid of the oppression caused by the Zionists…Israel is like that big bully that no 1 likes in school who uses their strength and power 2 torture innocent victims..and America is the teacher who turns their head the other way as not to notice the bully’s ways

       —ronnie-pissed off palestinian    Jun. 22 '04 - 06:54PM    #
  160. Alana,

    “Jews make up 2% of the United States, and about .03% of the world. How can a people so small “control” the United States? That is horrible.”

    Uhh, .5% of the US population controls something like 80% of the wealth.

    You are confusing numbers with power and money. Doesn’t quite work like that.

    And you assume that I mean something negative when I say that Jews control a lot of things. They do. Hollywood, the media, a lot of politics, banking, law, medicine, etc. So what?
       —T.J.    Jun. 22 '04 - 06:56PM    #
  161. t.j.,
    you need to start reading your own writing as well as mine…i never charged you with anything…i ASKED if you believed this and you got uber-defensive and flew of your rocker (as usual)...

    okay, for real this time, i’m out of this thread…and i think we all should…we’ve exhausted everything…

    its been emotional,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 22 '04 - 06:57PM    #
  162. Ronnie,

    u might want 2 stop using #’s 2 make ur points. u shoot urself n the foot n make urself look like a complete dumbass when u talk like that. try 2 act like u go 2 the university of michigan instead of sum middle school LOL!!!111 OMFG ur n idiot Lol!!!!111!!!
       —T.J.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:02PM    #
  163. Ari,

    What did I say that was racist? Let’s hear it.
       —T.J.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:03PM    #
  164. T.J.,
    You may not mean it as a negative thing, but it is a negative thing. For thousands of years, Anti-Semites have used things like that as a reason to persecute Jews. In fact, Hitler’s justification of why he was destroying the Jews was that in the depression at the time, the Jews were a wealthy part of German society. Therefore, saying things like that is a really bad thing, especially is you are trying to support the Jews.
       —Alana    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:19PM    #
  165. ”[The Nazis] were plucking people off that land and killing them because of their race and religion. Nobody, besides a Muslim or Slobodan Milosevic, would condone that.” -t.j.

    here, you propagate that every muslim (and people of no other faith) is tantimount to a nazi killer or milosevic…

    back to work,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:19PM    #
  166. Alana,

    That’s messed up and convoluted. I don’t accept that at all. To say that a group of people is successful, especially when it’s a fact, is not a negative thing. Sorry.


    No, I didn’t say every Muslim believed that. I said “a” Muslim would. Not “every” Muslim would. Use your head.
       —T.J.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:22PM    #
  167. Ari,

    Hell, Muslims aren’t a race, moron.
       —T.J.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:23PM    #
  168. I think it is disturbing to hear about putative Jewish control of U.S. and world on 6/22, the anniversary of Hitler invading Russia on 6/22/41 (and killing up to 27 million Russians and/or Jews combined, with the Einsatzgruppen and other Nazi extermination groups or operatives). Bad timing.

    There are some influential Jews, some influential Arabs, plenty of influential “WASPs”—-when was the last Jewish or Arab president of the U.S.? (I voted for (Gore/)Lieberman by the way; and for the sake of diversity…I almost said “affirmative action”..., will relish Kerry being the first Jewish president, if he makes it that far.)

    And if Jews control Hollywood, how did “Passion of the Christ” get made?
       —David Boyle    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:29PM    #
  169. but a jew, christian, athiest, etc. wouldn’t…a double standard i see…

    don’t play samatics games here (re: race)...and refrain from ad hominems…it makes you look like a child (which sad considering your ripe old age)...

    -ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:32PM    #
  170. i guess my point is that violence has been metted out people of all faiths (and lack of faith), so to single out muslims (which you did, t.j.) is a rather hateful focus on the muslim people…

    rockin’ in the free world,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:34PM    #
  171. ”[Jews) do. Hollywood, the media, a lot of politics, banking, law, medicine, etc.” -t.j.

    and i see you are being into the anti-semtic libel of the ‘protocals of the elders of zion’...

    how’s the national association for the advancement of white people going???

    with my tenticles on the banks,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:38PM    #
  172. “don’t play samatics games here (re: race)...and refrain from ad hominems…it makes you look like a child (which sad considering your ripe old age)...”

    1. “Samantics?”(sic) You said racist, then you claim that I am prejudiced against a faith, not a race.

    2. Ad hominems? I thought we already went through this; that you have no right to criticize others for ad hominems, given that you are a master of them.

    3. Even your claim about ad hominems is incorrect, as people keep reminding me that ad hominems are personal attacks IN PLACE OF AN ARGUMENT. My argument was clearly stated, Muslims are not a race. Thus, I am not a racist and thus I doled out no ad hominems.

    Thanks for playing, moron.

    By the way, you are apparently a liar as well. You claimed you were done with this conversation, but like a moth to a flame, you cannot seem to resist replying to me. You are definitely a masochist, I will give you that.
       —T.J.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:45PM    #
  173. Perhaps Ari is “trying to control the Arbor Update media” (ooooooooh)
       —David Boyle    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:48PM    #
  174. “and i see you are being into the anti-semtic libel of the ‘protocals of the elders of zion’...”

    What the hell is the “elders of zion?”

    I said that Jews are successful in many areas, and you claim that it’s racist in some way. You are trying to apply my comments to some idiotic preconceived notion based on some whacked out association you make with Jewish success and anti-Semitism.


    I don’t subscribe to ANY political ideology or religious denomination. You cannot pidgeonhole me in with any whacked out group that you think I should be a member of.

    I am a Protestant. I vote Republican usually (I have voted in three elections, Perot, Bush and Fieger for Mich Gov). That’s it. Anything else, any other little group you want me to be in, that’s IN YOUR HEAD, not mine.
       —T.J.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:49PM    #
  175. ”...and thus I doled out no ad hominems. Thanks for playing, moron.” -t.j.

    no comment…

    “You are definitely a masochist, I will give you that.” -t.j.

    nah, i just need something to do so i can put off writing my column for this month…

    t.j., all i’m asking from you is a little consistency…i can be a mean spirited person myself…but you said “i will not reply to steele with steinbeck”, and then, instead of coming with a reply to one of my arguments, you say “ari likes armpit porn” (which, i’m not sure even exists)...

    please, i’m sure a man of your age, your travels, you experience, can do better than playground babble…

    damn, if this hits 200,
    ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:50PM    #
  176. “i guess my point is that violence has been metted out people of all faiths (and lack of faith), so to single out muslims (which you did, t.j.) is a rather hateful focus on the muslim people…”

    I singled out Muslims, genius, because since World War II, only the Muslims and Slobodan Milosevic have “ethnically cleansed” on anything approaching a large scale, based on their religion.

    But I guess you missed that when you were trying to find some way to justify calling me a racist, didn’t you?
       —T.J.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:51PM    #
  177. “no comment…”

    Of course you have no comment, because for you to admit that you were wrong and you made claims about me that weren’t true…well…that would be like handing the world over to me, wouldn’t it?

    I cannot respect someone who doesn’t admit they screwed up when it’s blatantly obvious and undeniable.
       —T.J.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:53PM    #
  178. t.j.,
    man, sometimes you just need to breathe deeply…you are one angry and upset cookie…

    “Muslims and Slobodan Milosevic have “ethnically cleansed” on anything approaching a large scale, based on their religion.” -t.j.

    just one example: bjp (hindu nationalist party) in india masacred muslims in india…

    -ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jun. 22 '04 - 07:58PM    #
  179. TJ,

    Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda,
    Millions dead in the killing fields of Cambodia,
    Stalin’s massacring of millions of Ukranians,
    Chinese occupying Tibet,
    Pinochet in Chile,

    etc, etc.

    I’m gonna have to agree with Ari on this one: breathe in, hold it, exhale. Breath in, hold it, exhale. Repeat.

    Ari, as I said before, you’re fucking hilarious . . .
       —Jared Goldberg    Jun. 22 '04 - 08:41PM    #
  180. In a good way, of course . . .
       —Jared Goldberg    Jun. 22 '04 - 08:43PM    #
  181. you’re both wrong (TJ and Jared).

    Jared – your examples are all based on tribe/nationality – not faith (which was TJ’s comparitor).

    TJ – how is this: Bosnia Hertzogovina clensed Croats based on their religion, Croats clensed Bosnians and Mulims based on theirs. and Serbs (under melosovicz clensed both). Then of course there is Nagorno Karabakh where Armenians and Azieybarzhanis clensed each other on religious grounds.

    oh – an dof course there is teh Marinite Christian in Lebanon killing Muslims (comone on Kiblawi…).

    There is also PRC and Tibet – also on religious grounds. (Jared – this was the one you got right)

    Common – some precision please.

    ~a tired,still at work, dave
       —David Livshiz    Jun. 22 '04 - 10:27PM    #
  182. “And you assume that I mean something negative when I say that Jews control a lot of things. They do. Hollywood, the media, a lot of politics, banking, law, medicine, etc. So what?”~T.J.

    You just said Jews control a lot of things. You did not say they were successful, and even that is a stereotype. Yes, there are some Jews that are successful in all of the above, but there are also Arabs, Asians, African-Americans, and people of every other ethnic group… Say that there are succesful Jews, but don’t say they control everything, because that isn’t true.
       —Alana    Jun. 22 '04 - 10:58PM    #
  183. I didn’t say they control everything. You just jumped to the conclusion that that is what I meant.

    As a matter of fact, you have my quote right there in front of you and you STILL slammed me for something I didn’t say. It’s YOUR preconcieved notion of what you THINK I meant that is causing you to get your panties in a bunch.

    As for a “stereotype,” kiss my ass. I am not one of those people who runs from the term “stereotype.”

    EVERYONE stereotypes. Stereotyping is USEFUL and VALID. There’s a whole academic field devoted to stereotyping, it’s called Sociology.

    The only time stereotyping is negative is when you assume that because someone belongs to the group that you have stereotyped that they automatically adhere to all those stereotypes. If you are dumb enough to think that EVERY member of a stereotyped group conforms to that stereotype, you are an idiot. Other than that, there’s nothing wrong with stereotypes.

    As for you, you need to relax and READ what people say before you go off and throw your little tantrums. Maybe you wouldn’t look so ignorant if you responded to what people SAID and not what you THINK they meant.
       —T.J.    Jun. 22 '04 - 11:49PM    #
  184. TJ- Boy, you bible-thumping fundementalist Christians are all retarded. You’re poor, ignorant and you fuck your sisters if you can catch ‘em. Wait, no, I was just giving some common stereotypes of Christians, which you may or may not fall into, you intolerant murderous bastard. Hey, no, I didn’t mean that you were an intolerant murderous bastard, just that there are some Christians, which you profess to be, who are murderous intolerant bastards. I can understand how you’d be confused, being a pig-fucking retard who believes that Christ wanted people to become as rich as possible and fuck over the poor, and who believes in divine sanction for your violence. I mean by that, of course, that you’ve said you were a Christian, not that you’ve said anything about those other stereotypes. Pig-fucker.
    Oh, and no more ad hominem attacks from you, pig-fucker, because obviously they just come from your inability to read what I said, instead of what you thought or wanted to think I meant. Pig-fucker. Because I obviously don’t literally mean that you have sex with pigs. Just that some people who call themselves white Christians and go by the initials “T” and “J” have at some point fucked pigs.
    Understand? Prove me wrong if you can!
       —js    Jun. 23 '04 - 03:17PM    #
  185. Let’s all be nice now.
       —David Boyle    Jun. 23 '04 - 03:39PM    #
  186. good job fadi but if i was there i’d beaten the crap out of the jew officers and i would’ve love to die there. plus a punk jew bastard ain’t got @#$ on me.
       —ahmed    Jun. 23 '04 - 11:21PM    #
  187. T.J needs to join his mom and go rape theirselves then smell their fingers. Cause he has no business here commenting
       —ahmed    Jun. 23 '04 - 11:23PM    #
  188. Some people say that the Palestinians don’t want much, that they just don’t want the fence on their land. However, that is somewhat untrue.

    Palestinian terrorism existed long before the security fence, and it will exist long after. The fence is just the newest reason to pose an argument on the side of the Palestinians. And you may or may not be right about the reason of it being right where it is, but if you are, what exactly is wrong with that? Keeping that village far away from Ariel is completely legitimate, considering that all of the large settlement blocs, which are just suburbs of Israeli cities anyways, are daily targets or Palestinians from neighboring villages. They come and attack these people who are tending their farms or walking their children to school. They even shoot from hilltops at busses that take these children to neighboring cities high schools.

    You know how I know this? Because I was there.

    All of this has an overall theme… There was Palestinian terrorism against Israelis before “Palestinian” was even a term, before there was an “occupation” and before Israel was even a state. Even if Israel takes down the fence, gives back all the territories, and creates a Palestinian state, there will still be Palestinian’s who blow themselves up in the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, who kidnap 14 year old Israeli boys and kill and mutulate their bodies, and who desecrate holy places.

    And you know why? Because it never was because of the “occupation.” It was because they don’t want an Israel, a Jewish state, or a Jewish people, and this is their way to rid the world of it…

    Just a few words…
       —Just a thought...    Jun. 24 '04 - 09:45AM    #
  189. I think the big picture is missed by most who are addressing the arrest on personal levels. The real issue here is the Mass Strangulation carried by the IDF against the People of Palestine. It only reminds me of the Nazi gas chambers. The Appartheid Wall that Israel downplays and calls Barrier cuts deep in Palestinian lands, groves, and villages resulting in a slow mass murder of the innocent people of that land. This is no less of a historic crime than the Nazi’s actions against the Jews in the last century. Here the Victims of Nazism have perfected it and are victimizing an innocent population in the same manner though at a slower rate. A concerned Jew should worry about the erosion of “Humanity” in the so called Modern Israel. What Sharon’s government and the IDF are committing in Palestine is a horrific “Nazi” style Ethnic Cleansing that will some day haunt the entire Israeli Society.
       —Madeleine T    Jun. 24 '04 - 12:50PM    #
  190. Really…

    I think its sad that he was arrested for wanting to share the truth… and all of you that are putting him down- if you are doing something that is just as courageous, then keep postng- but if you have not, then you’re just another coward hiding behind your computer.
    Just wanted to state my feelings on this,
    my heart goes out to all of the people being persecuted in that area… israelis and palestinians.
       —malika    Jun. 27 '04 - 04:15PM    #
  191. Yes, Madeline.

    It reminds me of the NAZI gas chambers… Without the gas.

    Thanks for cheapening the suffer endured by Jewish, Black, and Gay Europeans in the Holocaust. You will be forever admired for it.
       —Thanks Madeline    Jun. 29 '04 - 10:11PM    #
  192. no matter what u believe or think, practically speaking, there won’t be a palestinian state aany time soon… palestinian activists here in america often seem ‘extreme’ compared to ur avg. palestinian in th ewest bank.. overcompensation anyone??
       —oooba    Jun. 30 '04 - 04:30AM    #
  193. This is all very amusing. The “israelites” are “weaving their own noose”. The ratio of Israelis to Palestinian deaths stood at 50 to 1 only a few decades ago. The advent of suicide bombers has lowered that ratio to 3 to 1. This is the reason for the israeli desperation for the wall. The Palestinians, without heavy weapons, found an effective weapon against the occupiers. Even if the wall is completed, there will always be countermeasures in today’s increasingly technological society. These measures are the first step in removing the illegitimate and illegal “state” of israel. Sleep tight little ones because Heydrich is making a list and checking it twice. Six million more!!
       —A.H.    Jul. 10 '04 - 02:17AM    #
  194. about the “guy coming back to get what was stolen from him”. One milion Jews were evicted from their homes in Arab and Moslem countries from Afganistan to Morroco and from Iran to Yemen.they had lived in the Middle East for 2000 years before the birth of your prophet. The wealther ones went to Canada, New Jersey and California.Those who went to France are now being forced to flee once more by Moslem violence. Just today a young woman was attacked on the Paris subway because Moslem thugs who thought she was a Jew. The poorer Jewish refugees went to Israel and were resettled, not kept in refugee camps supported by US taxpayers.Before the Russian immigration Jews from moslem countries constituted 70% of Israel’s Jewish population. 450,000 Arab refugees left Israel after its founding, many of their own volition or at the urging of the Arab States that had attacked Israel. See the work of Historian Ephriam Karsh, about the Arab elites that just abandoned Haifa and other cities. And Ahmed, cursing your opponent is not an effective debating tool and the same to you and your mother!
       —Gordy    Jul. 11 '04 - 11:37PM    #
  195. Dear People you think Israel is surrounded by “ancient” countries? Look at these facts and ask yourself if the moslems don’t have enough countries:

    Independence: 17 April 1946
    Background: Following the breakup of the Ottoman Empire during World War I, Syria was administered by the French until independence in 1946.
    Independence: 25 May 1946 (from League of Nations mandate under British administration)
    28 February 1922 (from UK)
    A local military caste, the Mamluks took control about 1250 and continued to govern after the conquest of Egypt by the Ottoman Turks in 1517. Following the completion of the Suez Canal in 1869, Egypt became an important world transportation hub, but also fell heavily into debt. Ostensibly to protect its investments, Britain seized control of Egypt’s government in 1882, but nominal allegiance to the Ottoman Empire continued until 1914. Partially independent from the UK in 1922, Egypt acquired full sovereignty following World War II.
    LEBANNON – independence
    22 November 1943 (from League of Nations mandate under French administration)
    IRAQ- independence
    Formerly part of the Ottoman Empire, Iraq attained its independence as a kingdom in 1932.
    IRAN- independence
    1 April 1979 (Islamic Republic of Iran proclaimed)
    KUWAIT- independence
    Independence in 1961
    Saudi Arabia- independence
    23 September 1932 (Unification of the Kingdom)

    LIBYA – independence
    24 December 1951 (from Italy)

    SUDAN – independence
    1 January 1956 (from Egypt and UK)

    TUNISIA- independence
    Following independence from France in 1956

    MOROCCO- independence Morocco’s long struggle for independence from France ended in 1956.

    QATAR – independence
    3 September 1971 (from UK)

    ALGERIA- independence
    5 July 1962 (from France)
    After a century of rule by France, and in the wake of 1948 elections rigged by French colonists to reverse the sweeping victory of a Muslim political party in 1947, Algerians fought through the 1950s to achieve independence in 1962.

    UNITED ARAB EMIRATES- independence
    2 December 1971 (from UK)

    YEMEN- independence
    Independence – 22 May 1990, Republic of Yemen was established with the merger of the Yemen Arab Republic [Yemen (Sanaa) or North Yemen] and the Marxist-dominated People’s Democratic Republic of Yemen [Yemen (Aden) or South Yemen]; previously North Yemen had become independent on NA November 1918 (from the Ottoman Empire) and South Yemen had become independent on 30 November 1967 (from the UK)

    BAHRAIN- independence
    15 August 1971 (from UK)

    SOMALIA- independence
    1 July 1960 (from a merger of British Somaliland, which became independent from the UK on 26 June 1960, and Italian Somaliland, which became independent from the Italian-administered UN trusteeship on 1 July 1960, to form the Somali Republic)

    (and by the way Israel won (5 times) and the arabs lost – end of equation
       —Shipless    Jul. 12 '04 - 03:56PM    #
  196. Take away Jews and blue jeans would not exist. Take away Jews and the hollywood would not exist. Take away Jews and the modern banking system would not exist. Take away the Jews and England would not have been able to finance itself in WW1 – hence we would all be speaking german today. Take away the Jews and “basic” deadly viruses would still plague the human race. Take away Jews and modern science would look quite different. Take away Jews and Hi Tech would still be in the potty-training stage.

    Am trying now to think what the arabs have contributed to the world in the last few centuries and all I can come up with is “TERROR”. The Jews deserve one country in which to live.
       —Shipless    Jul. 12 '04 - 04:04PM    #
  197. good luck
       —dana    Jul. 19 '04 - 09:47AM    #
  198. In my opinion, Palestinians are the most deceiving and corrupt people on earth. I feel that their mission is to spread hatred throughout the globe, Something they’ve inherited from their parents, and is passed along generations. Why can’t they accept the fact that God is angry with them, and that they will never return to their homeland?
       —S.B.    Jul. 25 '04 - 03:42AM    #
  199. Would you like to exchange links ?

    Please add us to your site or tell your members about our web site.

    We have the world largest variety of Palestine solidarity items, visit us at:
       —sambar    Jul. 25 '04 - 06:49AM    #
  200. 200…yippy…

    -an eccstatic ari p.
       —Ari P.    Jul. 27 '04 - 05:49PM    #
  201. The jews know how to put up walls, encamp people in little ghettos and make them live in squander. They had experts like the Nazis during WWII as instructors. They only need a few ovens and it’s just like the good ole’ days of ghettos and camps. And maybe they can ask Berlin for peices to build thier wall.
       —resplendent    Sep. 28 '04 - 03:17AM    #
  202. deleted comment - reason: inflamatory and derogative
       —    Oct. 7 '04 - 08:42AM    #
  203. For those who defend the savage isreali acts against the palestinians,before you talk about terrorism and anti-semetism please go find yourself a just religion which does not discriminate people.I would like to remeind you that people are sick of the story of anti-semetism, you do not know how to defend yourself and you have memorized onething which is anti-semetism. for God’s sake, the jews never had a home land and will never come the palestinians are terrorist when they defend themselves with stones and the Isreals are peaceful and they shoot children with their destructive weapons!!! isn’t that strange. please do not talk about native countries because those who talk about native countries should have one but the jews never had a homeland and they are known historically that they are not even a nation, they were spread in the world. about terrorism, shall we remind you of the story of the child Hue? fadi Kiblawi will gradute from the Law school no matter what happens and he is a hero and at least he did something to defend his beleifs, i want one single person of those who are offending Fadi to have the courage and go to Palestine (what they call Isreal) and protest against the Plalestinian terrorism.
       —P.G    Nov. 2 '04 - 05:53AM    #
  204. hi iam name is ahmad iam from jerusalem السلام عليكم انا لا اجيد الانكليزية جيدا واريد ان اكتب بالعربي انا من سكان القدس اريد التحدث عن شعب مضلوم طرد من ارضه وسلبة ارضه منه وهو المالك الوحيد لها لكي ياتي شعب على هذا الارض ارض الرسل ياخذها من دون اي مبرر ÙˆÙ?قد بالزعام ان هناك لهم ديانه وهيك هذا هراء ولا نقبله ونحن Ù?ÙŠ Ù?لسطين عامة ندعو المجتمع الدولي للتحرك ضد هذه الممارسات التعسÙ?ية التي يقوم بها الاحتلال وشكراااا
       —AHMAD ABIED    May. 24 '05 - 01:09PM    #
  205. Hi Ahmad,

    Your typing cannot be read. I am guessing you have written in either Arabic or Hebrew fonts.

    Perhaps someone else can advise you on how to type your message so that it can be read on ArborUpdate.
       —Blaine (Palestine Demolished by Dems and Republicans Equally.)    May. 24 '05 - 03:27PM    #
  206. Hmmm. I’ve got nothing. Scott, would the comment DB not save other character sets properly? I went into phpmyadmin to see if I could recover text, but I can’t get anything useful there, either.
       —Murph    May. 24 '05 - 03:48PM    #
  207. hi how are you iam names is a7med from plastine jerusalem fater rania bassam abu-rish dad me hi rania rania iam a7mad not spaeke english i miss you 4 ever

       —ahmadabied    Sep. 11 '06 - 01:43AM    #